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"OLD SCHOOL" manual hubs

ShadowsPapa

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Manual hubs offer the ability of 2WD low range, handy for backing a trailer real slow without riding the clutch in a manual transmission. Just leave the hubs disengaged and put the transfer case in 4L low range.

Also the TJ and JK (and some of the last model year YJ) did not have any type of front axle disconnect.
That's because testing by AMC showed less than 1 mpg gain by disconnecting and it was cheaper to not have FAD or hub disconnects. Eagle started out full-time 4 wheel drive. Then they came up with SelectDrive to offer 2wd option to save fuel. That was about 81, then in 84 or so they offered "shift on the fly" 2 to 4 wheel drive and got rid of the FAD - after finding disconnecting the axle offered almost no savings. Testing showed there was hardly any difference.

Yes, that's been my gripe about every stick I've had - except my OLD trucks. R was so bloody high you can't back and do any sort of guiding or steering unless you are really fast. I swear R in my T5 is about equal to something between 2nd and 3rd gear forward. Stupid high.

To me the benefit of manual hubs isn't the wear on the drivetrain, it's the serviceability at the wheels. Most of those setups are a traditional 2-bearing hub setup instead of the sealed unit Jeeps currently have and carrying a set of bearings and a seal is a lot easier than a new hub (or two if they're different).

The benefit from drag is minimal and even wear is negligible since there's no load but I'm just a fan of being able to actually fix shit instead of just replacing entire assemblies.
I keep spare hubs for my car - NOS. Most companies used hub assemblies from companies such as Kelsey-Hayes, etc.
If I have to swap hubs, then I rebuild the ones I took out with new bearings and seals and have more spares. It's really simple to rebuild most hubs, not a lot different than if you had to do other systems.

Jeep Gladiator "OLD SCHOOL"  manual hubs nos-hub


Jeep Gladiator "OLD SCHOOL"  manual hubs nos-hub3


Jeep Gladiator "OLD SCHOOL"  manual hubs sx4-hubs-012
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It is quite interesting to see how the domestic OEs have handled this over the years.

Manual hubs were great. I really loved them. They had their issues too...like the dials freezing in snowstorms. You had to plan ahead. But, as Americans became lazier and lazier the OEs saw that it would be appealing to owners if they didn't have to get out of the truck.

So GM went to a hubless system with the GMT400 platform in 1988. Total nightmare, as you would expect from GM engineering. They used a gas filled cylinder at the front differential. When "engaged", the gas would heat up and push a rod out, locking the front diff. Problem is, the gas would eventually leak out and render the system useless, and this typically happened in the middle of a frigid winter storm. Good job GM. Par for the course. Those idiots later switched to an electric actuator to replace the gas operated ones, and they did a little better. I did the swap on my '88 truck.

Ford hung on as long as they could, with hubs on their trucks until the 1997 redesign. But I had some of the late 90s Fords with their attempt at hubless 4x4, which was to actually use hubs but to actuate them via vacuum rather than manually turning a dial. This also was a disaster, as the vacuum lines would get pin holes in them or dry rot, rendering the system useless. By the early 2000s they abandoned this and just permanently locked the front hubs and diff, with the only disconnect at the t-case. This, in my opinion, is the best system ever made.

Chrysler during this time was using the FAD or CAD as some people call it. The collar that connected the 2-piece shaft on the passenger side would fail frequently, which could wipe out the splines or best case scenario render the system inoperational. Sigh.... They too eventually tossed it out and went to the same setup Ford went to with permanently locked hubs and diff and a t-case disconnect only.

So after all the junk we endured in the 1990s, the 2000s brought truly dependable 4x4 systems. And here we are in the 2010s going into the 2020s with the new JL/JT platform and once again we're going backward with FAD making a return and OEs putting fuel economy above dependability. Sigh.........

*by "hubless" I simply mean that no manual interaction was needed
 

ShadowsPapa

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It is quite interesting to see how the domestic OEs have handled this over the years.

Manual hubs were great. I really loved them. They had their issues too...like the dials freezing in snowstorms. You had to plan ahead. But, as Americans became lazier and lazier the OEs saw that it would be appealing to owners if they didn't have to get out of the truck.

So GM went to a hubless system with the GMT400 platform in 1988. Total nightmare, as you would expect from GM engineering. They used a gas filled cylinder at the front differential. When "engaged", the gas would heat up and push a rod out, locking the front diff. Problem is, the gas would eventually leak out and render the system useless, and this typically happened in the middle of a frigid winter storm. Good job GM. Par for the course. Those idiots later switched to an electric actuator to replace the gas operated ones, and they did a little better. I did the swap on my '88 truck.

Ford hung on as long as they could, with hubs on their trucks until the 1997 redesign. But I had some of the late 90s Fords with their attempt at hubless 4x4, which was to actually use hubs but to actuate them via vacuum rather than manually turning a dial. This also was a disaster, as the vacuum lines would get pin holes in them or dry rot, rendering the system useless. By the early 2000s they abandoned this and just permanently locked the front hubs and diff, with the only disconnect at the t-case. This, in my opinion, is the best system ever made.

Chrysler during this time was using the FAD or CAD as some people call it. The collar that connected the 2-piece shaft on the passenger side would fail frequently, which could wipe out the splines or best case scenario render the system inoperational. Sigh.... They too eventually tossed it out and went to the same setup Ford went to with permanently locked hubs and diff and a t-case disconnect only.

So after all the junk we endured in the 1990s, the 2000s brought truly dependable 4x4 systems. And here we are in the 2010s going into the 2020s with the new JL/JT platform and once again we're going backward with FAD making a return and OEs putting fuel economy above dependability. Sigh.........

*by "hubless" I simply mean that no manual interaction was needed
Did you have a Ford with the automatic hubs where you had to back up etc to lock and unlock?
Not a vacuum system but like manual hubs only automatic. Had one fail when my wife needed the truck for an appointment and I was out of state. She was irate and that truck got manual hubs on it as soon as I could order and install them. Warn....nice hubs.
 
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Lazy Americans 🤔🤔 A dash mounted switch to engage 4 Wheel drive that's "LAZY" !! Ford,General Motors, Ram, Toyota, Nissan. 4 wheel drive should be a floor Lever !!!
Only Ram "POWER-WAGON" Jeep Gladiator and Wrangler retained the floor Lever
 

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Lazy Americans 🤔🤔 A dash mounted switch to engage 4 Wheel drive that's "LAZY" !! Ford,General Motors, Ram, Toyota, Nissan. 4 wheel drive should be a floor Lever !!!
Only Ram "POWER-WAGON" Jeep Gladiator and Wrangler retained the floor Lever
Developing new technologies and applying them isn't laziness. It's innovation. Without it, we'd still be driving the same old 80s shitboxes.
 

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ShadowsPapa

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Lazy Americans 🤔🤔 A dash mounted switch to engage 4 Wheel drive that's "LAZY" !! Ford,General Motors, Ram, Toyota, Nissan. 4 wheel drive should be a floor Lever !!!
Only Ram "POWER-WAGON" Jeep Gladiator and Wrangler retained the floor Lever
Don't need a hefty lever - it's a simple easy to move lever on the t-case. In fact, some of the Eagle guys have used things like choke cables to connect to to the lever through the floor and give them low range after a t-case swap.
I know a big honking floor lever looks manly and cool - but it's really as simple and easy as flipping as pulling the throttle control lever on your lawn mower. It takes no effort, click, engaged.
 
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Let me elaborate Solid front axle heavy duty would the Jeep "FAITH-FULL" accept "I.F.S." On a Wrangler or Gladiator
The 4 wheel drive Transfer case "FLOOR" Lever operated
Would the truly hard core Jeep "FAITH-FULL" condone a dash mounted switch to engage 4 wheel drive.
isn't at the very least a floor activated transfer case more reliable than a push button or selecter switch ??
 

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Let me elaborate Solid front axle heavy duty would the Jeep "FAITH-FULL" accept "I.F.S." On a Wrangler or Gladiator
The 4 wheel drive Transfer case "FLOOR" Lever operated
Would the truly hard core Jeep "FAITH-FULL" condone a dash mounted switch to engage 4 wheel drive.
isn't at the very least a floor activated transfer case more reliable than a push button or selecter switch ??
What is this? Are you trolling?
 

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isn't at the very least a floor activated transfer case more reliable than a push button or selecter switch ??
Not really - in most cases difficulty shifting is due to the SHIFTER, not the transfer case. If you disconnected the shifter, the t-case itself shifts easily and smoothly.
So the lever itself is the part that's not reliable.
It's a matter of what the hard-core crowd wants. Is the lever needed or reliable? No. But they want it - so if the lever is out of whack, they don't give a rip because it's a sign of tough, manhood.
You can shift most transfer cases far more easily by hand directly on the lever on the t-case than by that floor lever.

The transfer case shifting system on my car is 40 years and over 193,000 miles old - and the shift motors and FAD and dash switch all still work.
Yet I've had trouble shifting my JT into and out of 4 wheel mode because the damned floor lever sticks and binds.
 

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I see... manual hubs, direct manual linkage shifting... you sir have no appreciation of technical improvements or refinements.

Gasp... a dash mounted soft touch switch to control tranfercase positions, how ungodly. My 360 powered J20 engaged 4wd all on its lonesome via quadratrack. Don't talk to me about "classic traditional only the real jeepy jeep owners would every get this" or other such gate keeping.

If you wanna be so old school, go buy a Ford GPW and have all the do it yourself you ever wanted.

Manual hubs aren't gaining you anything except some serviceability at the very far end of the performance envelope. A sealed unit hub bearing is going to be easier to replace trail side or in some walmart parking lot off I20; remove wheel, remove brake, remove axle nut, remove three 12pt bolts on back, bop with mallet, reverse to close incision. No lap full of grease, no where did that needle bearing go, no struggling to extract fiddly bits and since your axle is sealed at the pumpkin it won't start puking gear oil on your life. Manual hubs are truly a statement from someone who hasn't touched a modern jeep and possibly forgotten the horrors of classic jeeps.
 

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Rear limited slip should be standard equipment !!!! Why would anyone want an open differential ???
That answer is simple, lockers.
 

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Did you have a Ford with the automatic hubs where you had to back up etc to lock and unlock?
Not a vacuum system but like manual hubs only automatic. Had one fail when my wife needed the truck for an appointment and I was out of state. She was irate and that truck got manual hubs on it as soon as I could order and install them. Warn....nice hubs.
Yes, and that was the nice thing about those auto-hubs is that you could install manual ones in their place. I had the auto hubs on a 1995 F-150 and when they failed we put the Warn hubs in it.

Developing new technologies and applying them isn't laziness. It's innovation. Without it, we'd still be driving the same old 80s shitboxes.
But those "shitboxes" worked, and that's the point.

Engineers come up with ideas sometimes simply for job security. There is nothing about being stranded in a snowstorm because your truck won't go into four wheel drive that I consider to be "innovation".
 

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Yes, that's been my gripe about every stick I've had - except my OLD trucks. R was so bloody high you can't back and do any sort of guiding or steering unless you are really fast. I swear R in my T5 is about equal to something between 2nd and 3rd gear forward. Stupid high.
It would seem that it if was really important to someone, they could put a switch inside to allow 2wd low.

When you shift into 4Low, the computer energizes a circuit that locks the front axel. If you could put a switch in that circuit, by turning off the switch, you could keep the truck in 2 wd. Sure the driveshaft would engage, but that shouldn't be a problem and would allow you to make the necessary tight turns to back a trailer at low speed.

Yes? Or am I missing something.

or someone like Tazer could work up a software change that makes 2Low possible.
 
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👍👍 To Lockers but that's only on the Rubicon, and Power Wagon and Ford Raptor from the Factory.
My point was "OPEN" differentials are useless no way should they be "STANDARD" equipment on a 4x4 vehicle.
🤔 I do remember in the "1990's" the full size Ford Broncos and F-150's with the twin traction beam front axle were available with a "FACTORY" Limited slip "FRONT" differential as on option...
Once again it's a 4x4 shouldn't both differentials be at the very least Limited Slip ????
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