Those complaining about the steering... get the Fox Steering Stabilizer

[aglass0fmilk]

That's the worst response.... how are you sure YOUR JT isn't OK and others have a problem? I'm saying this from experience. I've driven BOTH. Trust me... the JT's with the problem actually feel WORSE than your 150k mile XJ.

True, true. This is the first new vehicle I've ever bought, I guess I have more faith in quality control than maybe I should.

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[ShadowsPapa]

That's the worst response.... how are you sure YOUR JT isn't OK and others have a problem? I'm saying this from experience. I've driven BOTH. Trust me... the JT's with the problem actually feel WORSE than your 150k mile XJ.

After seeing how some folks have no issue and others do - even people who have driven similar Jeeps for a while - I am a believer that there IS a problem, just that some, like me, haven't seen it. The one (yes, ONE) I test drove handled like a dream. It was at least as good as driving any of my other cars or my wife's Grand Cherokee or my 04 WJ - and I thought - what the heck is going on? These things are fine. Then I stepped back and observed more.......... hmmm, when you take into account these things are NOT just pure mechanical connections straight to a steering sector (with or without power/hydraulic assist called "power steering") but there are stability controls and so on - hmmmmm.... could it be that we're seeing some are fine, others are not, based on equipment, options, combinations, luck of the draw (bugs not always seen)
I also wonder if some of the confusion is lack of a perfect way to describe or define it. Loose is one thing - that to me means it would be like my SX4 before I replaced the steering sector (at about 180,000 miles - even the alignment shop said "that thing is LOOSE". You could control it - it just meant that you had to move it further to take out the play before the vehicle would respond. Going back the other way - turn the wheel an inch to remove the play, then it responded. It didn't wander at all, and after you moved one way or another and removed the play it was fine.
I was also wondering if there's more than one issue - making it hard to describe? Some folks may be seeing an issue caused by xx while others are having a similar but maybe different issue caused by yy and that muddies things?
In any case, Jeep needs to get directly involved.
They need to document everything in a matrix. I have resolved issues no body else could by being very systematic and factual and keeping perfect records. You track every complaint, you make note of everything about that vehicle - packages, tires, wheels, road types, speeds, you name it. It takes someone with great attention to detail but that's the only way to nail this down and in the end, they could find more than one issue crossing paths making it harder to describe or nail down.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

True, true. This is the first new vehicle I've ever bought, I guess I have more faith in quality control than maybe I should.

Oh I could show pictures - doors that let you see the road pass by as you are driving and look down to the left of your seat, window frames so poorly formed that you could pass a pencil through to the outside and not distort the gasket/seal, holes drilled in turn signal housings that were a full quarter inch off (I still have those in the original boxes on my shelves), a grill painted so poorly it was pulled from the line and sold through a dealership as a replacement part, headlight housings missing screws because the fit was so poor the screw missed the fender structure behind it................. dash overlays that fit so poor - they were a good 1/8" or more too long -so the assemblers were told to take care of the excess by allowing a bit of a bulge or bubble in the overlay next to the instrument cluster (but with my car the lay was perfect by the cluster - the overlay prevented easy opening of the glove box)
How about a Chevrolet that was being worked on because it got hit on the right side - when it came time to put trim back on - hmmm, something isn't right - come to find out the car came from the factory with one trim level on the left side and another on the right. There's a drive shaft hanging in a shop near me that has the u-joint yokes off by about 45 degrees - out of phase, from the factory.
My wife had the driver door glass replaced in her 2018 Grand Cherokee because of bubbles in the inside layer of the glass. It was sort of cool at first as with temperature changes the bubbles would grow or shrink or move around a bit, then finally they stopped changing - the dealership guy called others over to see it, they'd never seen anything like it.

 

[jrf]

You could control it - it just meant that you had to move it further to take out the play before the vehicle would respond. Going back the other way - turn the wheel an inch to remove the play, then it responded. It didn't wander at all, and after you moved one way or another and removed the play it was fine.

You described it very well there.

Also I linked a video here that @Wizzard005 did that gives a pretty good view for those that have a JT that is OK what a bad one looks like.



Great description from someone that has driven "both" and does a great job to explain it. Also the fact that very windy roads and towing a trailer add to that whole "dead spot" thing that it gets you into sort of a harmonic that the whole Jeep then starts swaying back and forth. As you normally would fight the wind and sway with a normal steering vehicle, this "excessive play" really makes that a nightmare.

I will also add that every single person that I've let drive my JT (and it's been a lot) have ALL said "What's wrong with the steering" most of these people have been Jeep owners.

 

[JeepCares]

I think the issue I have is how much of a dead zone is in the steering. You can’t seem to just hold a position on the road (slight gradual turn) because you have to move the steering wheel two inches to get out of the dead zone. I think this is the wandering I experience as I maneuver like a boat rather than a car. As described this product doesn’t get rid of the dead zone, is there anything that does?

Hi Steven,
If you decide to have your dealer look into this, please feel free to send us a private message. We would be happy to connect you with a Case Specialist to work with you and your dealer throughout this process.

I had mine back to the dealer Monday and they checked the alignment and checked the torque setting on the front end parts and found the track bar 10lbs under the required torque needed but that should not make much difference. If they found something else they did not tell me. I was not there watching the whole process because I knew it would be an all day stay. They had it all day and it may drive a little better but not much difference. I've adjusted several steering box's and rebuilt many front ends of cars motorcycles and Side By Side 4 wheelers going on 42 years but I'm not touching it yet till more is know about what's going on with this problem. I don't want to hear them say I touched something. My 3rd Jeep and turning wrenches and modifying the things I owns is what I enjoy. 540 miles so far. This is the last Jeep I had.

My jeep Likes my money

Hi Ray,
I know we have reached out to you regarding your steering before. However, I just wanted to remind you that we are hear to offer assistance while working with your dealer. If interested, please send us a PM.
Alex
JeepCares

 

[brancky3]

You described it very well there.

Also I linked a video here that @Wizzard005 did that gives a pretty good view for those that have a JT that is OK what a bad one looks like.

To play devil's advocate, he's comparing a JLU (Sport? Sahara?) to JT Rubicon which has different steering than the other JT trims. The only people I've seen complaining about steering on JT's have been Rubicon trims, but I haven't been paying too close attention to be honest.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You described it very well there.

Also I linked a video here that @Wizzard005 did that gives a pretty good view for those that have a JT that is OK what a bad one looks like.



Great description from someone that has driven "both" and does a great job to explain it. Also the fact that very windy roads and towing a trailer add to that whole "dead spot" thing that it gets you into sort of a harmonic that the whole Jeep then starts swaying back and forth. As you normally would fight the wind and sway with a normal steering vehicle, this "excessive play" really makes that a nightmare.

I will also add that every single person that I've let drive my JT (and it's been a lot) have ALL said "What's wrong with the steering" most of these people have been Jeep owners.

If it's like my worn steering sector was - you couldn't act "fast" because it took "time" to move to the point where you had the feel of the wheels again. It was like you could move the wheel back but the wheels didn't respond.
One check I did when I did alignments and checked for wear was have a person in the car/truck, whatever, "wiggle" the steering wheel back and forth - and move it more and move with each time. I was looking for play in the sector to begin with and then having them move the wheel further each time, I was checking things like pitman arm, drag link, idler arm, tie rods and so on. A little steering wheel wiggle would expose wear in the sector if there was any, more aggressive moving of the wheel got past that and showed other worn parts. Sometimes there was enough wear, it was a stack-up of things - a small bit of wear in the sector added to a loose pitman arm then play in the idler arm allowing the drag link to move up and down a bit on the right end instead of straight laterally, well........
Anyway, with a loose sector I hated windy days, semis going past me, or road crown changes as I was always having to try to keep up moving the wheel more than normal. Now when I move that wheel the car responds NOW, not a tenth of a second later.

 

[jrf]

If it's like my worn steering sector was - you couldn't act "fast" because it took "time" to move to the point where you had the feel of the wheels again. It was like you could move the wheel back but the wheels didn't respond.
One check I did when I did alignments and checked for wear was have a person in the car/truck, whatever, "wiggle" the steering wheel back and forth - and move it more and move with each time. I was looking for play in the sector to begin with and then having them move the wheel further each time, I was checking things like pitman arm, drag link, idler arm, tie rods and so on. A little steering wheel wiggle would expose wear in the sector if there was any, more aggressive moving of the wheel got past that and showed other worn parts. Sometimes there was enough wear, it was a stack-up of things - a small bit of wear in the sector added to a loose pitman arm then play in the idler arm allowing the drag link to move up and down a bit on the right end instead of straight laterally, well........
Anyway, with a loose sector I hated windy days, semis going past me, or road crown changes as I was always having to try to keep up moving the wheel more than normal. Now when I move that wheel the car responds NOW, not a tenth of a second later.

You again have almost PERFECTLY described what it feels like driving it. Windy days, all of it. Great way of describing it, you turn it there is a delay, but then it's gone too far and now you are trying to turn back, guessing when to stop and correct. It's terrible.

My JT is at the dealer right now. Just talked to them in fact. Their comment is we drove two back to back and yours is just like the other Rubicon on the lot. If the other has the same problem of course they are going to drive the "same".

I then relayed more specific stories and the added problem while towing. They seemed very interested in that actually and were going to go back out and look again. I towed about 2500 lbs worth of trailer with it and was not happy. I honestly wouldn't even consider towing 6k safely.

@ShadowsPapa To your point...I did exactly what you described, I had my friend sit in the driver seat and move the wheel back and forth only in the "dead" zone. Where the wheels don't move but the steering wheel does. Again it's about 2" on the wheel. I did notice that the sector shaft itself moved laterally in relation to the frame. Probably could (and should) measure the actual deflection there.

For those of you that DO have the problem...question. Do you notice it the same consistently? Or would you say sometimes it's worse than other times? If so, what speeds/things seem to effect it?

 

[jrf]

The only people I've seen complaining about steering on JT's have been Rubicon trims,

Then that case in point proves it's not a "Jeep" thing and all Jeeps with recirculating ball steering act this way. Right? Because current'y that's my dealers stance. It's a Jeep and they all have terrible steering. That I should know and expect that of a Jeep product. They claim all JKs, JLs and now JTs have this exact same behavior and it's because it's not rack and pinion steering.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Then that case in point proves it's not a "Jeep" thing and all Jeeps with recirculating ball steering act this way. Right? Because current'y that's my dealers stance. It's a Jeep and they all have terrible steering. That I should know and expect that of a Jeep product. They claim all JKs, JLs and now JTs have this exact same behavior and it's because it's not rack and pinion steering.

That dealer is full of BS - thousands of non-rack and pinion cars handle great - plus rack and pinion can also steer terribly when worn or if caster is off, toe is messed up, among other things.
I don't get it - why does everyone thing rack and pinion is the answer from heaven and anything else = bad ??
That's just pure unadulterated BS.
They are saying in effect anything without R&P steering is going to handle bad?
Let me take them for rides in my cars - with standard recirculating ball steering sectors - I'll take 'em around some curves that will have them needing a change of underwear and I'll show how if I move my steering wheel an inch or even less, the car responds NOW.
I'll take 'em through an autocross course with my Javelin, heck, even my Eagle. I was so good the Chevy guys trying to keep up busted parts.
That Gladiator I test drove - the one where the dealer handed me the keys, said it had plenty of gas, take it out a while, take it into town, take it up xx street over there with the hills and curves, hit the interstate with it - then he went inside as I drove away - that thing handled NICE. I mean it was perfect. Disclosure - it was a Sport S with max tow - because that's what I was looking at first - but if that steering had been goofy at all, as a professional and trained tech, I'd have talked to them about it.
All I'm saying is that unless that one Jeep I drove was the odd one out of thousands - this isn't a Jeep thing. Maybe that one I drove was the freak?

 

[brancky3]

Then that case in point proves it's not a "Jeep" thing and all Jeeps with recirculating ball steering act this way. Right? Because current'y that's my dealers stance. It's a Jeep and they all have terrible steering. That I should know and expect that of a Jeep product. They claim all JKs, JLs and now JTs have this exact same behavior and it's because it's not rack and pinion steering.

You shouldn't put up with that dealer. "It's a Jeep thing" is the most BS excuse ever which is unfortunately accepted by way too many people. I would continue bringing it in and hopefully if they turn you away too many times you could lemon law it.

 

[jrf]

The answer got a little better this afternoon. They now agree that it's NOT ok, and that towing would absolutely be a problem with my Jeep. Hopefully when I go there I'll find out what exactly they did but hopefully/possibly they actually towed something with it as I had explained to them it amplifies the problem.

However they have no documented fix at this point. According to them they are submitting the information back to Jeep. They said to continue to check and that if enough people (are you all listening!??) are bringing these back with problems the faster it will get pushed back to engineering. So follow @JeepCares advice and make those appointments with your dealer. For those of you without a problem...well...lucky you

Of course this is what they are telling me...at this point I have to hope and assume it's true.

I also don't think it's going to hurt to file those reports with NHTSA and DOT. Pretty sure that will light a fire faster than customer complaints. I'd personally like there not have to be an accident before this gets attention.

I also think a single thread on this should be created (as there are many) and Pinned. At least we have one dealer agreeing that this much play is not as intended.

 

[Rubicon Bob]

I have been following all these reports, although my LE does not have this problem. One thing i have never seen mentioned is looking at the rear diff. On my TJ, when the rear bushings wore out, it was a handful to try to drive. Tail wagging the dog situation. It was more scarier than the front end being worn out. Some of you have reported it was worse when towing. Could be the rearend. Maybe worth being checked out.

 

[Rayzzz]

I have been following all these reports, although my LE does not have this problem. One thing i have never seen mentioned is looking at the rear diff. On my TJ, when the rear bushings wore out, it was a handful to try to drive. Tail wagging the dog situation. It was more scarier than the front end being worn out. Some of you have reported it was worse when towing. Could be the rearend. Maybe worth being checked out.

Good point about checking rear suspension,

My Jeep likes my money

 

[HikerBob]

I thought it was just me because I haven’t owned a jeep for some years but I have a Rubicon LE and the steering seemed really loose especially on the highway. The video is spot on with the constant correcting. Also, if I pass a semi I have to have both hands on the steering wheel to keep the JT in line so it sounds like this isn’t normal.

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