Overland catches fire for no reason

[Oscar Indy]

You cannot change the thread title once it is created. The thread title becomes part of the HTML address for indexing.

Only back door I know of is to create a new thread with the corrected title and have a moderator combine the old thread with the new one and delete the old thread.

Just pm Jay he has changed them for me already

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[Domsgarage]

Saw this on the facebook group, seems like people are suspicious of the winch wiring.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Love the video. Cars fly by a burning Jeep like nothing is there but loose a couch cushion on the shoulder and traffic backs up for 10 miles.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

I’m no fire expert but it looks like it was awful hot around the electric power steering pump. Looks like it was behind the winch unless the winch wiring rubbed through on something under the hood. Man, that aluminum really melted!!! Either way, what a bitch.
Sorry for the poor guys loss.

 

[bgenlvtex]

That is the ground cable for the winch, it is routed over the top of the steel support for the breather box. The positive cable is gone, as is the battery. I'll guarantee you the insurance company is going to give him some shit.

 

[Slapping_Rabbits]

That is the ground cable for the winch, it is routed over the top of the steel support for the breather box. The positive cable is gone, as is the battery. I'll guarantee you the insurance company is going to give him some shit.

So can someone explain this a bit to me. I'm thinking of putting a new bumper winch combo on and don't want to make this mistake.

 

[bgenlvtex]

So can someone explain this a bit to me. I'm thinking of putting a new bumper winch combo on and don't want to make this mistake.

Your positive cable will (unless routed through a relay) run directly to the positive pole of the battery.

If the cable shielding is damaged during installation, or subsequent to installation, this can/will provide a direct ground from the battery effectively turning your battery into a single use welding machine, which can/will result in what you see in that picture.

The positive cable should be run carefully to avoid any cuts or pinches during or after installation. Any decent manufacturer will provide additional sheathing with the positive cable in the form of a rubberized fiberglass sheath. I like to run that through plastic split loom with heat shrink at both ends and enough rings of electrical tape to keep the loom closed particularly in bends.

Routing the cable carefully, securing the cable with zip ties, adding armor to the cable and being conscious of how it crosses metal will ensure success.

Relay or no relay is another subject with two clearly divided fields of thought, but regardless a relay once the cable is energized it it is allowed to go to chassis ground you are going to have a very bad day.

Hope that helps

 

[WXman]

My Badland ZXR 12000 winch came with a robust circuit breaker. The instructions said to absolutely run the breaker in line with the positive battery cable. Would this not prevent a short and subsequent fire like this? Don't all winches use these?

 

[bgenlvtex]

My Badland ZXR 12000 winch came with a robust circuit breaker. The instructions said to absolutely run the breaker in line with the positive battery cable. Would this not prevent a short and subsequent fire like this? Don't all winches use these?

In a nutshell, before that fuse/breaker pops things are already on fire.

Your winch will pull 400ish amps
Your battery will put up 700ish
So your breaker/fuse will need to be in the 500a neighborhood, and shit will be on fire before it pops.

 

[Slapping_Rabbits]

Your positive cable will (unless routed through a relay) run directly to the positive pole of the battery.

If the cable shielding is damaged during installation, or subsequent to installation, this can/will provide a direct ground from the battery effectively turning your battery into a single use welding machine, which can/will result in what you see in that picture.

The positive cable should be run carefully to avoid any cuts or pinches during or after installation. Any decent manufacturer will provide additional sheathing with the positive cable in the form of a rubberized fiberglass sheath. I like to run that through plastic split loom with heat shrink at both ends and enough rings of electrical tape to keep the loom closed particularly in bends.

Routing the cable carefully, securing the cable with zip ties, adding armor to the cable and being conscious of how it crosses metal will ensure success.

Relay or no relay is another subject with two clearly divided fields of thought, but regardless a relay once the cable is energized it it is allowed to go to chassis ground you are going to have a very bad day.

Hope that helps

It does. Thank you for that.

 

[Factoid]

I am going to say after reviewing the pictures, that this was an improperly installed winch. To an earlier question, circuit breakers are a better solution than a fuse (which is better than nothing) on a circuit powering an electric motor, but need to be installed as close to the power source (battery in this case) as possible to protect as much of the wiring as possible. I disagree that a properly installed circuit breaker would not have prevented this disaster. While there would have been damage, it would have been recoverable. This is not recoverable and was clearly allowed to burn for sometime prior to being extinguished. The other problem here is that without some method (CB, fuse, manual cutoff switch) at the battery to deenergize the circuit, it would continue to arc weld the chassis and burn critical systems even when the ignition was turned off. Even a handy fire extinguisher would do nothing to curtain the devastation.

Let this be a lesson to those installing high current equipment to ensure a proper and safe installation. I’ve been working on electrical and electronic systems for over 40 years and I’ve seen some real bonehead installations. Adding lights is one thing, adding a winch is major league work.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I am going to say after reviewing the pictures, that this was an improperly installed winch. To an earlier question, circuit breakers are a better solution than a fuse (which is better than nothing) on a circuit powering an electric motor, but need to be installed as close to the power source (battery in this case) as possible to protect as much of the wiring as possible. I disagree that a properly installed circuit breaker would not have prevented this disaster. While there would have been damage, it would have been recoverable. This is not recoverable and was clearly allowed to burn for sometime prior to being extinguished. The other problem here is that without some method (CB, fuse, manual cutoff switch) at the battery to deenergize the circuit, it would continue to arc weld the chassis and burn critical systems even when the ignition was turned off. Even a handy fire extinguisher would do nothing to curtain the devastation.

Let this be a lesson to those installing high current equipment to ensure a proper and safe installation. I’ve been working on electrical and electronic systems for over 40 years and I’ve seen some real bonehead installations. Adding lights is one thing, adding a winch is major league work.

I must absolutely AGREE with Factoid. I've done auto electric since I was a teen. I've totally rewired cars, and pickups - the latter often was because of improperly connected trailer wiring or other mods. The former due to pinches, age, someone installing a mail-order stereo with wire nuts and masking tape or not fusing things (you find the wiring harness with fuse holder in the trunk with the box)
I've restored cars over the years - and helped others. I often get parts sent to me for restoration that show obvious, uh, well, politely - what were they thinking? They were not.
I also buy and otherwise obtain wiring harnesses from classic cars so I can use the special connections, connector shells and certain other parts, match specific wire color and sizes and so on. It's amazing what some of those are like - which wires have been hot and so on.

A fuse or circuit breaker would break that circuit before it got hot enough to burn.
I have circuit breakers supplying the relays that run the headlights on my SX4 - and I have fusible link wire feeding those.

A circuit breaker sized properly and the right type (there are more than one type) would have prevented all but melted wires. There should have been no "fire" if power had cut off. And if the wires are sized properly. A circuit breaker won't help a lot of the wires are too small for the load and the DISTANCE. Size wire for the distance the load is from the source. If the wires are properly sized, the breakers would kick out before the wires got hot enough to lose insulation. How and where you route wires can matter, too.

Guys are always asking me about what wires they should use when they put on a larger alternator (where the original may have been 40 or 60 amp) and some of the other answers posted on the forums I'm in - laughable. 14 gauge? Seriously? And you realize some of them are looking at specs for AC lines. But still screwing up.
When I go running cables for a winch, front and rear as I have a receiver mount, whatever size I determine by charts and calculations, I'll like take that one up. Call me paranoid. I've never lost a vehicle to fire, never even had a burned circuit of any sort - I'm not ready to have the first one.

 

[bgenlvtex]

I must absolutely AGREE with Factoid. I've done auto electric since I was a teen. I've totally rewired cars, and pickups - the latter often was because of improperly connected trailer wiring or other mods. The former due to pinches, age, someone installing a mail-order stereo with wire nuts and masking tape or not fusing things (you find the wiring harness with fuse holder in the trunk with the box)
I've restored cars over the years - and helped others. I often get parts sent to me for restoration that show obvious, uh, well, politely - what were they thinking? They were not.
I also buy and otherwise obtain wiring harnesses from classic cars so I can use the special connections, connector shells and certain other parts, match specific wire color and sizes and so on. It's amazing what some of those are like - which wires have been hot and so on.

A fuse or circuit breaker would break that circuit before it got hot enough to burn.
I have circuit breakers supplying the relays that run the headlights on my SX4 - and I have fusible link wire feeding those.

A circuit breaker sized properly and the right type (there are more than one type) would have prevented all but melted wires. There should have been no "fire" if power had cut off. And if the wires are sized properly. A circuit breaker won't help a lot of the wires are too small for the load and the DISTANCE. Size wire for the distance the load is from the source. If the wires are properly sized, the breakers would kick out before the wires got hot enough to lose insulation. How and where you route wires can matter, too.

Guys are always asking me about what wires they should use when they put on a larger alternator (where the original may have been 40 or 60 amp) and some of the other answers posted on the forums I'm in - laughable. 14 gauge? Seriously? And you realize some of them are looking at specs for AC lines. But still screwing up.
When I go running cables for a winch, front and rear as I have a receiver mount, whatever size I determine by charts and calculations, I'll like take that one up. Call me paranoid. I've never lost a vehicle to fire, never even had a burned circuit of any sort - I'm not ready to have the first one.

Winch pulls 400-500amps, meaning the breaker or fuse will be in excess of that.

Everything in that vehicle will be toast before the breaker trips or fuse blows. There isn't a piece of metal anywhere in that body, chassis that won't go to smoke at 400 amps.

Seems prudent for sure, but reality is exactly what you see in the pictures posted, with or without a breaker/fuse if a poor installation allows energized tab A to insert into ground receptacle B.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Badlands 12000 winch at full load draws 300 amps. (Look in the owner manual)
Warn 12000 pound winch pulls something like 470 amps.

According to Warn specs, they pull a whole lot more than most of their competition as far as amperage.

There are disconnect switches which I believe are 350 amp switches (allow you to turn the power to your winch on or off from the dash - it's basically similar to a Ford style starter relay but for more constant duty)

I think Warn might call it a "power interrupt switch". Basically, no power to the winch unless you turn the relay on. That would seem the ultimate safety. Not sure what Warn's version is rated at.

 

[bgenlvtex]

Badlands 12000 winch at full load draws 300 amps. (Look in the owner manual)
Warn 12000 pound winch pulls something like 470 amps.

According to Warn specs, they pull a whole lot more than most of their competition as far as amperage.

There are disconnect switches which I believe are 350 amp switches (allow you to turn the power to your winch on or off from the dash - it's basically similar to a Ford style starter relay but for more constant duty)

I think Warn might call it a "power interrupt switch". Basically, no power to the winch unless you turn the relay on. That would seem the ultimate safety. Not sure what Warn's version is rated at.

Semantics, what part of that body/fender engine bay do you think is going to sustain 200amps without catching on fire?

The answer is none of it.

It's a complete waste of time, but if it makes you feel better by all means install one.

ETA: a disconnect relay and a fuse or breaker are obviously not the same thing. If you want to be certain, just unhook the positive cable.

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