Any reason to avoid Manual Transmission?

[WXman]

I'm confused about the comments on reverse being too tall. 4.49:1 is too tall? What kind of incline are you guys trying to back up?

Anyhow, as far as reasons not to buy the manual:

-WILL require expensive clutch/flywheel maintenance at some point, whereas the 850RE is sealed "for life"
-Lower resale value
-Lower towing capacity
-PITA in city or bumper-to-bumper traffic
-Gear ratios are all taller (except 1st) so performance will be lesser and fuel economy will likely not surpass the auto
-More dangerous off-road, particularly if you stall on a hillside

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[Slapping_Rabbits]

I'm confused about the comments on reverse being too tall. 4.49:1 is too tall? What kind of incline are you guys trying to back up?

Anyhow, as far as reasons not to buy the manual:

-WILL require expensive clutch/flywheel maintenance at some point, whereas the 850RE is sealed "for life"
-Lower resale value
-Lower towing capacity
-PITA in city or bumper-to-bumper traffic
-Gear ratios are all taller (except 1st) so performance will be lesser and fuel economy will likely not surpass the auto
-More dangerous off-road, particularly if you stall on a hillside

Well sure, if you think of it as a glass half empty sort of situation. However, it is very fun to drive daily and now that its been 2 months, in traffic, i don't even notice it. Second, off road its basically an auto. You put that in 4L and let off the clutch and you crawl. Just gas and brake as needed. Third, I'm teaching the wife and have learned so much about myself and my incredibly large capacity for stick shift jokes and puns.

Being more connected with your daily driving easily weighs more than the items listed. It is totally worth it from a fun perspective and doesn't affect the off roading at all.

 

[hjdca]

I'm confused about the comments on reverse being too tall. 4.49:1 is too tall? What kind of incline are you guys trying to back up?

Anyhow, as far as reasons not to buy the manual:

-WILL require expensive clutch/flywheel maintenance at some point, whereas the 850RE is sealed "for life"
-Lower resale value
-Lower towing capacity
-PITA in city or bumper-to-bumper traffic
-Gear ratios are all taller (except 1st) so performance will be lesser and fuel economy will likely not surpass the auto
-More dangerous off-road, particularly if you stall on a hillside

This may not be the right way to make your assessment. People buy manuals in a jeep because they are more fun. In fact, this is the case with every car. Every sports car now with a manual is beat in the 1/4 mile by its sister car with an 11 speed automatic or some incredible tranny like that.

Also, to address your 6 points - number 1 is debatable. I believe auto trans require more maint. than manual trans.
number 2 is debatable -- Not many 3 pedals car left in this world. No electric car will be 3 pedal. I believe people will be buying up specialty 3 pedal cars in the future. Note: Today, A Ferrari gate shifter car is worth more, and much more desirable, than the 2 pedal version. Today, A 3 pedal BMW E46 M3 is much more desirable and worth more than its sister SMG version. All 3 pedal Classic muscle cars are worth more and are more desirable than their auto counterparts. For 4WD, The Toyota FJ62 has a great bullet proof auto tranny with overdrive, but, most enthusiasts prefer the 3 pedal FJ60 or the Diesel motor with the 5 speed manual that has to be imported from Australia.

So, how many 3 pedal 4WD are left ? Very, very few. How will an enthusiast get one in the future ? How long will Jeep keep offering a 3 pedal Gladiator ?
number 5 - I do not see a gear ratio problem with my Gladiator Rubicon and 33 inch tires. With 35s or 37s, the gearing will be high.
number 6 - if you know how to drive it, definitely not. You can also stall an automatic on a hillside.

One thing you can count on. Uniqueness is desirable. As 3 pedal trucks/cars keep disappearing, more people will surface that want one. It is just human nature, so, get a 3 pedal while you still can.

 

[MoparDave]

That's an 8 sp auto pictured...

Correct ( Too much Johnny Walker )...LOL

Now corrected

 

[Gatorized]

I'm confused about the comments on reverse being too tall. 4.49:1 is too tall? What kind of incline are you guys trying to back up?

Anyhow, as far as reasons not to buy the manual:

-WILL require expensive clutch/flywheel maintenance at some point, whereas the 850RE is sealed "for life"

The $2000 premium you pay for the auto will cover more clutch replacements than you should ever need. Advantage : MANUAL!

 

[WXman]

This may not be the right way to make your assessment. People buy manuals in a jeep because they are more fun. In fact, this is the case with every car. Every sports car now with a manual is beat in the 1/4 mile by its sister car with an 11 speed automatic or some incredible tranny like that.

Also, to address your 6 points - number 1 is debatable. I believe auto trans require more maint. than manual trans.
number 2 is debatable -- Not many 3 pedals car left in this world. No electric car will be 3 pedal. I believe people will be buying up specialty 3 pedal cars in the future. Note: Today, A Ferrari gate shifter car is worth more, and much more desirable, than the 2 pedal version. Today, A 3 pedal BMW E46 M3 is much more desirable and worth more than its sister SMG version. All 3 pedal Classic muscle cars are worth more and are more desirable than their auto counterparts. For 4WD, The Toyota FJ62 has a great bullet proof auto tranny with overdrive, but, most enthusiasts prefer the 3 pedal FJ60 or the Diesel motor with the 5 speed manual that has to be imported from Australia.

So, how many 3 pedal 4WD are left ? Very, very few. How will an enthusiast get one in the future ? How long will Jeep keep offering a 3 pedal Gladiator ?
number 5 - I do not see a gear ratio problem with my Gladiator Rubicon and 33 inch tires. With 35s or 37s, the gearing will be high.
number 6 - if you know how to drive it, definitely not. You can also stall an automatic on a hillside.

One thing you can count on. Uniqueness is desirable. As 3 pedal trucks/cars keep disappearing, more people will surface that want one. It is just human nature, so, get a 3 pedal while you still can.

I get that the manual is more "fun" to some folks. I've owned several, and still have a Mach 1 in the garage with a manual trans. right now. However, the OP asked for reasons why a person would not buy the manual, and I simply listed several.

#1 is not debatable. The ZF transmissions are not to be serviced for life. They are designed specifically so that consumers will not do any maintenance on them for the expected life of the vehicle. The D478, however, does have "wear items" in it, which is why parts like clutches and flywheels only have a very short warranty. How much life they'll see depends on the driver, but at some point there will need to be a trans. removal for a new friction disc and flywheel.

#2 is also not debatable. Most people cannot even drive a manual trans. these days, and so the pool of potential buyers is significantly smaller, which means value is lower. With Millennials and women increasingly buying SUVs these days, the desire for the manual is even smaller going forward. Try to trade a manual into a dealership and you'll see what I mean. They want vehicles they can resell quickly.

I guess the only debatable point I made was that a stick-shift is more dangerous off-road. I simply based that on my own experience and also on what I've seen out on the trails. There could be some guys who for some reason prefer a manual while in hairy terrain, I suppose.

 

[MrKnowitall]

if you look at this gearing its basically the same as the NSG370 in the JK, same as in the TJ/LJ '04-'06, which I often find I just skip gears, 3rd and 4th are so close, or especially 5th (1.0-1) because 4th is 1.15-1 and that is too close most times unless you're down shifting to get up a mountain, and I always want a 7th due to the 6th being only .85-1, so I think I'm gonna really like 2 overdrives.

The clutch in the JL/JT is a little lighter than I would prefer.

I frequently use only 4 gears on the way up in the JKUR- 1(briefly), 2,4,6. I might use 3rd when rolling a left turn. I think the MT trucks should have gotten 4.56 gears- that'd be the same final drive as a NSG370/4.10axle.

 

[kd1yt]

re: WXman's #1 the ZF 8 speed is designed to not need service for the lifespan of the transmission; depending on how long you hope to keep your vehicle, the lifespan of the transmission may or may not equal what you intend and want as the lifetime of the vehicle.

I had the ZF 8 speed in a 2015 Ram Ecodiesel. Easily the most excellent auto I have ever driven- not just owned, but driven- so I hold it in very high regard, and from everything I have read about it, I expect it to be more reliable and long lasting than many auto transmissions.

But, when a modern auto transmission, especially one this sophisticated, has major trouble off warranty, you have to buy a whole entire transmission; they are no longer user-rebuildable like the old US 3 speed autos, and they aren't even expert-shop-rebuildable, they are only buy-able as a unit. Between buying a new transmission and the labor to put it in, the repair bill will be absolutely fierce, especially on what may be, by then, an older vehicle with declining value.

By comparison, a person with reasonable mechanical ability can change their own clutch in a driveway with some pretty simple tools, for something that will only cost in the hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. Even hiring it done in a shop, a clutch replacement is low cost compared to replacing a whole automatic transmission. Any decent manual transmission will outlast many clutches and, unabused, and with decent maintenance, should have a lifespan that will outlast the rest of the vehicle. It's simple, rugged technology that was perfected by the late 1940s, and has only been refined and improved since. This is a transmission made by a highly respected source of manual transmissions.

Many buyers will probably not plan to own, or end up owning, their JT for a span of time that will exceed the lifespan of the auto transmission. I plan to keep my JT a very, very long time and so, in addition to enjoying a manual, I prefer to have something that will "fail simple" "be fixable simple" and "cost simple."

If you prefer an auto, that is fine, and there are plenty of valid reasons to prefer an auto. Where I think you are off base is insisting that a manual is inferior. They each have a different set of strengths and trade-offs, and there are valid reasons for some people to prefer the trade-offs presented by a manual. I am glad that Jeep has kept the manual option for us.

 

[jurfie]

^^^ Good points

 

[5JeepsAz]

I get that the manual is more "fun" to some folks. I've owned several, and still have a Mach 1 in the garage with a manual trans. right now. However, the OP asked for reasons why a person would not buy the manual, and I simply listed several.

#1 is not debatable. The ZF transmissions are not to be serviced for life. They are designed specifically so that consumers will not do any maintenance on them for the expected life of the vehicle. The D478, however, does have "wear items" in it, which is why parts like clutches and flywheels only have a very short warranty. How much life they'll see depends on the driver, but at some point there will need to be a trans. removal for a new friction disc and flywheel.

#2 is also not debatable. Most people cannot even drive a manual trans. these days, and so the pool of potential buyers is significantly smaller, which means value is lower. With Millennials and women increasingly buying SUVs these days, the desire for the manual is even smaller going forward. Try to trade a manual into a dealership and you'll see what I mean. They want vehicles they can resell quickly.

I guess the only debatable point I made was that a stick-shift is more dangerous off-road. I simply based that on my own experience and also on what I've seen out on the trails. There could be some guys who for some reason prefer a manual while in hairy terrain, I suppose.

I propose the usual debate. First of all, everything is debatable. Second, try to disagree. Third, off road if you have a clutch you can disengage power to all wheels. An automatic starts turning the wheels, well, automatically, a lot of revolutions, it spins; you can only stop the wheels with the brake. So picture yourself on an incline where nuetral means rolling into a rut. Would you rather wheel spin your way along using the brakes in auto, or, ease the clutch in and out and engage incrementally to power your own fate?

 

[jimbom]

re: WXman's #1 the ZF 8 speed is designed to not need service for the lifespan of the transmission; depending on how long you hope to keep your vehicle, the lifespan of the transmission may or may not equal what you intend and want as the lifetime of the vehicle.

I had the ZF 8 speed in a 2015 Ram Ecodiesel. Easily the most excellent auto I have ever driven- not just owned, but driven- so I hold it in very high regard, and from everything I have read about it, I expect it to be more reliable and long lasting than many auto transmissions.

I have that 8-speed in my '14 Ram and agree that it is the best automatic I've ever experienced in my 40 years of driving (those automatics being a couple of my wife's cars and many, many rental cars.) I had never personally owned an automatic, thought I wanted a full size truck but couldn't get one with a manual (sans the big diesel) and it was that transmission that sold me on the Ram. Still like the truck and appreciate the transmission, BUT I can't wait to go back to a manual transmission. When I learned that the Gladiator was going to offer the 6-speed stick, I was already sold. Just have to decide on a color and it's a done deal. (BTW, my wife went back to driving a manual years ago.)

The only way I can explain my preference for a manual is that I just feel like I am better connected to, and in more control of the power.

 

[jimbom]

I get that the manual is more "fun" to some folks. I've owned several, and still have a Mach 1 in the garage with a manual trans. right now. However, the OP asked for reasons why a person would not buy the manual, and I simply listed several.


#2 is also not debatable. Most people cannot even drive a manual trans. these days, and so the pool of potential buyers is significantly smaller, which means value is lower. With Millennials and women increasingly buying SUVs these days, the desire for the manual is even smaller going forward. Try to trade a manual into a dealership and you'll see what I mean. They want vehicles they can resell quickly.

The chicken or the egg? Most cars and trucks aren't even available in a manual transmission in the US, so yes, most people haven't had the opportunity to learn a stick to find out how much more fun they are (not so everywhere else in the world.) But I'm pretty sure just about everyone is capable of driving a manual. With good instruction, it takes maybe an hour or two of driving time to be on your own. My 16-year-old transitioned from my Ram to my 5-speed Civic in about that amount of time and now he never asks to drive the truck.

 

[Empty Pockets]

The manual guys out there make so many valid points! I recently traded a ‘14 Silverado with an auto. The only AT I’ve owned for any period of time. I drove it off the lot 5 years ago wondering what the heck I’d done and the AT never satisfied me. Guess I’m a MT guy through and through. No reason to avoid the MT at all unless you just aren’t into it. Speaking of the clutch, a friend just did his 1st clutch replacement in his ‘06 Jeep at 176,000 miles. $1100 out the door. Or just a bit over 1/2 the cost of the AT that very likely wouldn’t last that long.

I’ve been very satisfied with my JT (MT)in the couple of months that I’ve owned it. It was a little “clunky” at first, as others have mentioned, but smoothed out quickly. It’s a very nice transmission.

Today I received another email from a dealership still trying to sell me a Sport S. I looked at the window sticker and was shocked to see that no manual was offered and the automatic is included. What the heck??? Is this a reason to jump on one quick? Has anyone caught wind of canceling the AT???

 

[Empty Pockets]

Correction to my last question above. Should have said “Has anyonecaught wind of canceling the MT???

 

[Mightytalldude]

The manual transmission is a dying breed in the US, but depending on the vehicle, is a selling point. Yep, you'll have to replace a clutch eventually, towing is less than an automatic with factory clutch, and definitely more challenging in off-road situations. With that said, my last truck was a manual, changed the clutch at 175,000 miles, and dropped in a remanufactured engine at 198,000 miles, drove it to 236000 miles and sold it for half the price I bought it for 18.5 years earlier. Off-road was actually a piece of cake, with it's 64:1 crawl ratio, I just creeped up the hills without having to touch the brake or gas. My Gladiator will probably be my last manual vehicle I'll own, and I'm pretty sure Jeep will be the last domestic holdout for trucks, and Toyota last import. As for the Gladiator, drive it like it's a 4 speed with an OD and you'll do fine. 3000 miles and 19.2 average mpg, and tons of smiles.

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