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MarineHawk

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And I've broken a solid axle without even having a locker, doesn't really mean anything.

Independent suspension is better in most every other condition than rocks, but if rocks are what you mostly do, then it's a compromise. I do all kinds, so more concerned with other aspects. Lockers are important, payload etc.
Does really mean something. I had a 4x4 with an independent front suspension and seriously considered putting a locker on it, and the local experts argued successfully against it. Far weaker.

Who ever has exceeded the payload in a small SUV?

You gonna haul 5 yards of topsoil in it?
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Bobzdar

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Does really mean something. I had a 4x4 with an independent front suspension and seriously considered putting a locker on it, and the local experts argued successfully against it. Far weaker.

Who ever has exceeded the payload in a small SUV?

You gonna haul 5 yards of topsoil in it?
What? I mean, countless solid dana30 and dana35 axles have been broken by lockers - they're not designed for that kind of abuse. It has nothing to do with it being solid or independent and everything to do with it being a weak axle. An independent suspension designed for a locker will be fine.

I got the gladiator because the wrangler didn't have enough capacity, neither towing nor payload - I easily exceeded both on it. The defender has plenty of both and with my gladiator sitting in the shop for another 3 weeks waiting on a transmission, I'm second guessing getting it.
 

MarineHawk

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What? I mean, countless solid dana30 and dana35 axles have been broken by lockers - they're not designed for that kind of abuse. It has nothing to do with it being solid or independent and everything to do with it being a weak axle. An independent suspension designed for a locker will be fine.

I got the gladiator because the wrangler didn't have enough capacity, neither towing nor payload - I easily exceeded both on it. The defender has plenty of both and with my gladiator sitting in the shop for another 3 weeks waiting on a transmission, I'm second guessing getting it.
Rubis don't have dana 30 or 35.
 

Bobzdar

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Rubis don't have dana 30 or 35.
You're missing the point. Putting a locker in an axle not designed for it is what results in a broken axle. It has nothing to do with independent or solid. Your ifs wasn't designed for a locker, neither are the solid axles in lesser jeeps, that's why putting a locker in them breaks them.
 

MarineHawk

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You're missing the point. Putting a locker in an axle not designed for it is what results in a broken axle. It has nothing to do with independent or solid. Your ifs wasn't designed for a locker, neither are the solid axles in lesser jeeps, that's why putting a locker in them breaks them.
I'm NOT missing the point, which is that both the front a rear lockers on the Rubis are much stronger than the Offender's rear-only locker. If you disagree, you're wrong.
 

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Bobzdar

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I'm NOT missing the point, which is that both the front a rear lockers on the Rubis are much stronger than the Offender's rear-only locker. If you disagree, you're wrong.
I don't know how you could possibly know that, and if true would have zero to do with independent vs solid axles. The strength of the locker, differential and axles have zero to do with solid vs independent. H2s have full independent suspension with lockers and are way stronger than any stock rubi.
 

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I've personally seen lockers on an independent suspension break. Much weaker than on a solid axle. Independent suspension also = far less articulation.
Less due to the pivot points being so close to the wheel. The upper and lower control arms pivot close to the frame rails while a solid axle can pivot on line closer the center of the vehicle. Multiple limiting factors - the short length of the upper arm, especially, is limiting. You'd have to pivot that in the engine bay to allow as much travel as a solid axle has. The lower arm you can pivot way inward but if you did then you'd change the arc drastically and make it worthless for street use.
As far as locking the axles together - no reason they can't be locked because with independent front suspension you still have a carrier you can put a locking or limited slip device into. It's been discussed in the Eagle hobby for years.
Breaking isn't due to the independent suspension - it's due to the fact they don't use as heavy a setup in them as the vehicles with solid axles do. (in most cases - some do, depends on market/purpose)
If you need a locking axle setup, why would you want independent front suspension and if you want independent front suspension, you are after ride and handling, not rock crawling.
 

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Does really mean something. I had a 4x4 with an independent front suspension and seriously considered putting a locker on it, and the local experts argued successfully against it. Far weaker.

Who ever has exceeded the payload in a small SUV?

You gonna haul 5 yards of topsoil in it?
ZERO to do with it being independent suspension - it's due to the heft of the axle setup. Look at the models used - compared to the solid front axles.
It's weaker NOT because it's independent, it's weaker because it was never designed for that use. It's that simple.
Cause and effect. It's like saying violent video games cause people to be violent. No, violent people tend to violent video games. Violent people don't like teddy bear games.
The vehicle with independent suspension was not designed for lockers in most cases. But there are those with independent suspension that could handle them. It's the purpose and design of the vehicle that determined a lesser differential and axle setup would go up there.
Why would the fact it's independent suspension be the cause of the breakage? Been a mechanic for decades, have worked on such drive systems - it's the fact they are lighter, not the fact they are independent.
 

MarineHawk

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I don't know how you could possibly know that, and if true would have zero to do with independent vs solid axles. The strength of the locker, differential and axles have zero to do with solid vs independent. H2s have full independent suspension with lockers and are way stronger than any stock rubi.
Wrong. I had an H2 I drove for 120K miles, and they had strong rear locking axles with the SOLID rear axle. They did not come with locking front independent axles. Wrong. H2 friends I wheeled with who put aftermarket lockers on their front end broke them regularly when the rear axle lockers didn't break. Not a coincidence. It's much stronger to lock two solid axles together than a bunch of pivoting parts. The H1 and the Military HMMVSs I drove for thousands of miles are stronger because they are hugely over-built. But you can't really claim that the Offender has that. You can keep arguing, but locking pivoting parts are inherently weaker than a solid locking axle. You can compensate for that with huge amounts of steel. Are you claiming that that the Offender does that? Not.

H2s had independent locking axles? You really should talk about things about which you have some knowledge.

They only came with rear lockers on solid rear axles. Here are pics of mine and one of my friend's:

Solid rear locking axles:

XDPZRon.jpg


EF0PS0U.jpg


No locking independent suspensions on H2s. Wrong.
 
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Bobzdar

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Wrong. I had an H2 I drove for 120K miles, and they had strong rear locking axles with the SOLID rear axle. They did not come with locking front independent axles. Wrong. H2 friends I wheeled with who put aftermarket lockers on their front end broke them regularly when the rear axle lockers didn't break. Not a coincidence. It's much stronger to lock two solid axles together than a bunch of pivoting parts. The H1 and the Military HMMVSs I drove for thousands of miles are stronger because they are hugely over-built. But you can't really claim that the Offender has that. You can keep arguing, but locking pivoting parts are inherently weaker than a solid locking axle. You can compensate for that with huge amounts of steel. Are you claiming that that the Offender does that? Not.

H2s had independent locking axles? You really should talk about things about which you have some knowledge.

They only came with rear lockers on solid rear axles. Here are pics of mine and one of my friend's:

Solid rear locking axles:

XDPZRon.jpg


EF0PS0U.jpg


No locking independent suspensions on H2s. Wrong.
Lol, sorry, not h2, the original h1. That thing had full independence suspension and lockers and was a far sight tougher than a rubi (and especially an h2). The h2 was a souped up tahoe. You were brave to off road it.

As to the defender (or offender or whatever) I doubt the rear axle will be a weak point. Most likely electronics.
 

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Bobzdar

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Have you driven one? On what actual information is your opinion based?

BT04yA7.jpg


IButMSo.jpg


Ty5w5Gr.jpg
Well, it's literally a Tahoe frame, basically a 3/4 ton Tahoe. Which is cool I guess, not my cup of tea. I haven't driven one off road but my neighbor has one and I've wheeled with them before. Biggest limitation is the sheer size of the beasts, they don't fit in some places a jeep (or defender) easily fit, but whatever. They have nothing to do with the defender. The h1 was what I meant to compare to with 4 wheel independent suspension and lockers, and they're not fragile.

All that is to say a properly designed independent suspension works fine with a locker. One not designed for it will probably break, just like solid axles not designed for it will probably break.
 

MarineHawk

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Yeah, the Jeeps fit into some places where H2s don’t, and they have greater front axle articulation. But the H2 has some advantages on open terrain, including that you could put 37s on them with no lift, which made then, IMO, really stable on inclines with a pretty wide stance and low center of gravity.

The H1s/HMMVs do have crazy strong lockers and control arms. In the pics below, the guy in the H1 just smashes over that rock in the second pic with no trouble.

Prfidaq.jpg


8JJhmgt.jpg


fSnUklO.jpg


I am unaware of any other relatively-mass-produced vehicle that has that amount of steel in the front-end components.

Below is me in Kuwait in March 1991. Fun stuff.

zwoOVxX.jpg


dM1K3i9.jpg
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