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Loose Steering?

jrf

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Okay then.... What bolt are we referring to here ya think?
So that's interesting!! Yes would love to know which bolt! That would be VERY easy to confirm if I removed a stripped bolt from the box...

I wonder if it's the worm bearing preload screw.... I think everyone here has been messing with the gear mesh adjustment...and I'm wondering if it isn't in the worm bearing preload. Oh if it turns out to be as simple as replacing and adjusting a bolt!!!

And why are bunch of internet jockeys trying to figure this out rather than my dealer or a Jeep engineer.... for crying out loud....
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ShadowsPapa

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So that's interesting!! Yes would love to know which bolt! That would be VERY easy to confirm if I removed a stripped bolt from the box...

I wonder if it's the worm bearing preload screw.... I think everyone here has been messing with the gear mesh adjustment...and I'm wondering if it isn't in the worm bearing preload. Oh if it turns out to be as simple as replacing and adjusting a bolt!!!

And why are bunch of internet jockeys trying to figure this out rather than my dealer or a Jeep engineer.... for crying out loud....
These use a screw rather than the old-style nut, I take it, like Saginaw used to use?
If it's ONLY the screw that's stripped............ but what-if.......
IF it's only the screw, you replace that, back the over-center screw off to not mess with your torque reading, set the worm gear bearing preload and then set your over-center and hopefully be good.
My worry is that when a bolt or screw is stripped - what about the threads it screws into?
 

ShadowsPapa

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In an aluminum box....
EXACTLY - not a cast steel box. So........... do you strip the steel screw or the aluminum housing?
I MIGHT be able to answer that - I deal with stripped holes in aluminum all the time in my hobby - the steel screw, stud or bolt wins every time.
I keep an assortment of helicoils around to repair the damage. Alternator frames, aluminum intakes, starter drive end housings, you name it. I get sent damaged stuff all the time to restore.
This could be interesting.
 

KennyKustom

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My steering isnt great, i wouldnt say " loose" ... But i have to really man handle it. It doesnt like to return to centre, after a turn.
 

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My steering isnt great, i wouldnt say " loose" ... But i have to really man handle it. It doesnt like to return to centre, after a turn.
Typically that is a out of spec caster. Not enough usually. Since your only adjustments factory are tire pressure and toe is check both of those first see if it helps. I've seen several toes be out of spec and the factory recommended tire pressure is too high. Chalk test says 31 on my Jeep.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Rubi Gladiator. Stock. Purchased a week ago. ( traded in 17, recon unlimited )
My steering isnt great, i wouldnt say " loose" ... But i have to really man handle it. It doesnt like to return to centre, after a turn.
Toe and caster contribute to the returning to center (other angles, too, but won't go there now)
If the steering box lash adjustment is too tight - if it's snug over center, it will be hard for it to self-center as well.
You can easily check toe-in, caster too but not as simple at home.
Positive caster helps keep the wheels straight and return them to center over most of the other angles, in part because with caster the vehicle is raised slightly in turns and the weight wants to help recenter it.

I drove mine today in strong west-southwest winds. I took some less than even and glass-like roads. I wanted to seriously watch the top of my steering wheel as I drove - of course I had to make course corrections as normal, but I figured the top of the wheel never moved more than 1" - half of that most of the time. Wish I had remembered to do a video. At one point, running about 45-50, I let go of the wheel and it kept straight ahead for about 100' without me having to correct it.
One thing I tried hard to pay attention to as well was - as soon as I move the wheel do I FEEL the connection to the wheels, or is the wheel moving without me detecting that it's connected to something and moving the wheels. I had to remember - longer vehicle than my cars, much taller tires than my cars, that sort of thing, and the JT has other things that are different sort of isolating the driver from the pitman and tie rod - no, when I moved the steering wheel I could feel the resistance and always felt that within a quarter inch of wheel movement the Jeep was starting to respond.
 

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Some people on that FB thread are saying it's the Track Bar bolt --> presume that is different than the worm gear preload?

That preload screw is beyond me, haven't gotten that far in this Jeep yet - been a car guy prior, so I'm learning. However that adjustment I did to the steering box is night and day difference - gotta admit that was a good decision for now. We'll see. I plan to check my track bar when I get home lol.
 

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Some people on that FB thread are saying it's the Track Bar bolt --> presume that is different than the worm gear preload?

That preload screw is beyond me, haven't gotten that far in this Jeep yet - been a car guy prior, so I'm learning. However that adjustment I did to the steering box is night and day difference - gotta admit that was a good decision for now. We'll see. I plan to check my track bar when I get home lol.
historically these bolts were all tooth bolts and we always replaced them with good grade 8 shoulder bolts. I havent pulled the track bar as of yet to see what the stock bolt looks like on these.
 

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Trackbar bolts are just a normal bolt with a captured washer. No shoulder, threaded all the way to the washer. M14x1.50x74.15
 

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ShadowsPapa

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Some people on that FB thread are saying it's the Track Bar bolt --> presume that is different than the worm gear preload?

That preload screw is beyond me, haven't gotten that far in this Jeep yet - been a car guy prior, so I'm learning. However that adjustment I did to the steering box is night and day difference - gotta admit that was a good decision for now. We'll see. I plan to check my track bar when I get home lol.
If the torque is adequate on the bolts that secure the track bar, it will not shift or move. The torque stretches the bolt and the assembly acts as one unit with no part being able to shift or move independent of the other part. If you bolt two plates together and the torque is adequate, the fit doesn't have to be snug as the torque or stretch on the bolt holds things together. That's what you learn in machinist school.
If you check Machinery's handbook and other fastener sources (my dad worked in a factory and they had to be VERY specific about the "bolt" or "screw" type) you will find that a bolt isn't a bolt isn't a bolt.
A cap screw is a hex headed bolt that has the bottom of the head trimmed to a "washer" so that the hex head doesn't contact the part being fastened directly. Most auto engine parts have "cap screws". Head bolts, intake and exhaust manifold, and other areas usually have cap screws. It leads to more accurate torque when tightening because a known surface makes contact, not the bolt's hex corners. (I restore original bolts for people.........)
There are "tap screws" or "tap bolts" (oh, the term screw is semi-interchangable these days - the SAME fastener with a hex head is called a bolt if it's fastening parts with a nut on the other side and it's called a screw if the fastener screws into a threaded hole)
A tap bolt has threads all the way up - you don't generally use those for suspension and steering parts - you want.
Cap screws/bolts are generally used for precision fastening and longer ones do not have threads all the way from end to head.
In short - the track bar should be attached to the frame bracket using a cap screw, not a tap screw.

The preload sets the load or tightness applied to the bearings on either end of the worm gear in the steering sector. It's akin to the preload on the carrier bearings and pinion bearings in a differential.
You want some load on those bearings.
The other adjustment is the lash - the clearance or play between the worm gear and the other gear. Too tight and it will be too tight at the center and have trouble coming back to center. Too loose - well - you have to move the steering wheel a lot to get a reaction from your front wheels.
Preload would only be an issue if it was really loose and the worm gear could move end to end or up and down as you turned. Lash is most likely to be off - but hey, either can cause you trouble if wrong.
 

ShadowsPapa

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Trackbar bolts are just a normal bolt with a captured washer. No shoulder, threaded all the way to the washer. M14x1.50x74.15
So they actually use tap bolts - which are bolts threaded from end to head, and with a captive washer.
OK - that's different but if the torque is adequate it won't truly matter in the end.
I haven't yet taken mine apart to dig into that part but mine has NO play, the torque is good, no sign of any movement between parts like no indication the trackbar is shifting in the frame bracket or the other end. All is good.

Shoulder bolts have a shoulder that is larger than the threaded part of the bolt.
Cap screws and non-tap bolts have an unthreaded portion that is the same as the rest of the bolt diameter - if it's a 3/8" bolt then the threaded area is 3/8 and the unthreaded area is 3/8" where a shoulder bolt may have a 5/16" threaded area and a half inch unthreaded area, the shoulder. Typically a shoulder bolt is used where you want parts to pivot.
I worked in a large hardware store years ago and was responsible for year-end inventory as well as my father being an inspector in a factory (and proud UAW member) and boy, the bolts I had to learn about.

Here are links to my UN-loose steering - two videos I made today - the second one it was WINDY as an ice event - freezing rain, mix of snow/rain etc. was blowing in. So one with it not too windy, about 5-10 mph winds and the other a bit stronger.
Tires 38 psi stock Overland tires and toe-in 1/8" on the nose.



 

Scrubb84

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So they actually use tap bolts - which are bolts threaded from end to head, and with a captive washer.
OK - that's different but if the torque is adequate it won't truly matter in the end.
I haven't yet taken mine apart to dig into that part but mine has NO play, the torque is good, no sign of any movement between parts like no indication the trackbar is shifting in the frame bracket or the other end. All is good.

Shoulder bolts have a shoulder that is larger than the threaded part of the bolt.
Cap screws and non-tap bolts have an unthreaded portion that is the same as the rest of the bolt diameter - if it's a 3/8" bolt then the threaded area is 3/8 and the unthreaded area is 3/8" where a shoulder bolt may have a 5/16" threaded area and a half inch unthreaded area, the shoulder. Typically a shoulder bolt is used where you want parts to pivot.
I worked in a large hardware store years ago and was responsible for year-end inventory as well as my father being an inspector in a factory (and proud UAW member) and boy, the bolts I had to learn about.

Here are links to my UN-loose steering - two videos I made today - the second one it was WINDY as an ice event - freezing rain, mix of snow/rain etc. was blowing in. So one with it not too windy, about 5-10 mph winds and the other a bit stronger.
Tires 38 psi stock Overland tires and toe-in 1/8" on the nose.



Thanx for the vids Shadows I wish my issue was a simple trackbar fastener, unfortunately it’s not. That was one of the first things I checked after psi. Don’t claim you (meaning the guy on FB) fixed all Jeeps or know how to just because in your case you got lucky and it was that simple. Pisses me off to be honest.
 

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On a different note, If I buy my own mopar steering box (same p/n as mine) & pay my dealer to replace it, do I then have any legal way of getting all that $ back when it will clearly solve my problem?
Also, how am I supposed to know if the “new” one won’t be the same junk I currently have bolted to my frame? Also also, How much are you willing to bet that on the same day I order my new box, I will get a call from my serv dept saying bring her in cuz Jeep is now going to replace your garbage box. Maybe they’ll wait until the same day my new one arrives. Either way, I’d bet a bunch of you will agree with that comment.
Sorry for being angry again. Lol
 

ShadowsPapa

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On a different note, If I buy my own mopar steering box (same p/n as mine) & pay my dealer to replace it, do I then have any legal way of getting all that $ back when it will clearly solve my problem?
Also, how am I supposed to know if the “new” one won’t be the same junk I currently have bolted to my frame? Also also, How much are you willing to bet that on the same day I order my new box, I will get a call from my serv dept saying bring her in cuz Jeep is now going to replace your garbage box. Maybe they’ll wait until the same day my new one arrives. Either way, I’d bet a bunch of you will agree with that comment.
Sorry for being angry again. Lol
Many such parts have revision numbers on them - cast, stamped, etc. - not sure about THESE, but most other parts do have some way of tracking them beyond just a part or model number. Maybe someone who has swapped the more recent MOPAR sectors will comment.
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