Edelbrock E Force coming soon.

[KurtP]

Well, from their JL post: ' Our design team stuck with the 1320 for ease of manufacturing. Had they opted for the 1900 a new rotor housing would be required. The goal was to get to production ASAP. ' So, it was basically a time to market/cost decision.

This is the most important part that separates good tuners from "Stage 2 Bandits" rehacking junk box tuning for a quick buck. Accurately calibrating EGR function and Cam Phasing is generally very complex and time intensive, and it seems like a concept they understand. If that is in fact true as he says, I would guess the drivability of their kit is exceptional, and explains how they are keeping the power gap as close as they are given the significantly smaller blower.

• The EGR is taken into account especially since it is required for the EO.
• Cam phasing has been adjusted to optimize combustion stability throughout the RPM range and optimize peak performance.

To be sure, I think the livernois one is as well, I just dont know that I have the ability to leave my truck with them for 2-4wks for programming, since that's the only way they do it. It also seems like the magnuson in-house tuning is making great strides also.

I'm going to give Magnuson more time on their file, keep looking at some of the centrifugal options from hamburger and ripp, and make my decision closer to summer time.

Sponsored

 

[bsd103]

For me another big selling point with the edelbrock (and maybe more motivation for them keeping it as 1320 based), is that it makes maintenance even easier than a stock setup. Suddenly the intake manifold is no longer in the way. It's a very very well packaged unit, and I do plan on getting one. Unfortunately I've been waiting for my truck for around 6 months now, and I will feel inclined to put some mileage on it before adding boost

 

[mike921921]

This is the most important part that separates good tuners from "Stage 2 Bandits" rehacking junk box tuning for a quick buck. Accurately calibrating EGR function and Cam Phasing is generally very complex and time intensive, and it seems like a concept they understand. If that is in fact true as he says, I would guess the drivability of their kit is exceptional, and explains how they are keeping the power gap as close as they are given the significantly smaller blower.





To be sure, I think the livernois one is as well, I just dont know that I have the ability to leave my truck with them for 2-4wks for programming, since that's the only way they do it. It also seems like the magnuson in-house tuning is making great strides also.

I'm going to give Magnuson more time on their file, keep looking at some of the centrifugal options from hamburger and ripp, and make my decision closer to summer time.

Moving the alternator below the waterline, so to speak, is a non-starter for me, so I'll probably go Magnuson.

 

[Membrain]

I did research on both Edelbrock and Magnuson systems. Other than blower size and ideal output at a given rpm, I also gave consideration to the installation... the Edlebrock provides better support to the intercooler than the Maggie... this was a greater concern over the Maggie possibly causing damage and coming loose over time when driving offroad versus the Edlebrock having a few HP less... while I do like the looks of the installed Maggie, I prefer the Edlebrock over the Maggie because of the intercooler mounting.
Give it a look for yourself, download and compare the installation instructions.

 

[KurtP]

Moving the alternator below the waterline, so to speak, is a non-starter for me, so I'll probably go Magnuson.

Edelbrock doesnt relocate the alternator down on ours.

 

[DAVECS1]

It will be interesting to see saturated IATs on the edlebrock. With the 1900 IATS always seem to be in check even on long grades with a load. Moving more air without having to squeeze it as much is good. The question is, is 1900 too much and is 1320 enough or just right.

 

[CMac]

Edelbrock doesnt relocate the alternator down on ours.

This.....along w/ Edelbrock's experience and longevity were always my main reasons for the interest on their SC.

I appreciate you guys peeling back the technical aspects of the product.

 

[KurtP]

i so far find the Edelbrock the most compelling, and while this is just my personal opinion- it seems the most complete. Ripp makes a ton of power and has a lot of satisfied customers.
They seem knowledgeable and their product consistent. Magnuson is using a big roots blower, and now has a tuner that has some SERIOUS grit. As i said, he has asked to remain anonymous, but his experience and resume making horsepower is considerable. It will be a reliable and powerful tune when he is done, and its already come A LONG way.

ive gotten to the point, though, that i value drivability over outright power. Livernois does a fabulous calibration. But you have to leave the truck with them for 2-4wks to get it done; plus any “delays” that come up. Ripp, hamburger, any other centrifugal are open filter elements. Thats fine for a street truck, but what about one headed to the trail With water and dust? I guess you could fab an airbox; but the PD blowers leave the air box sealed and intact.

with the edelbrock, theyve addressed all the tuning issues to the motor AND the trans. Airbox remains sealed. It shows up to your door ready to bolt on and go. Its been driven in all the conditions you would normally find. The EGR and cam phasing have been properly addressed. The box shows up, and your truck drives more gooder-er by the end of the weekend. No other company has that right now.

my ego wants big power, but is it worth it?

-i want my truck to last 15yrs of use.
-i want a sealed airbox for snorkel use.
-i want bolt on and go with a ready to go tune, not one that requires a bunch of custom dyno and road tunes.
-i am increasingly concerned about the legality of non carb parts. 15 states have signed on to carb so far, and the number is set to grow. I live in virginia. The likelyhood of virginia going carb is in my estimation, high. What do I do if i drop $7,000 on a SC kit and suddenly my truck wont register/inspect because it is in violation? Theres no guarantee you will get grandfathered by the state and no guarantee you can buy a carb approved tune from the vendor later.
-i want transmission tuning addressed. Higher tq converter lock up with high load lock to lock shifting so the thing lasts.

most honest dynos put a stock JL at about 220ish whp. Ripp, Edelbrock, and Livernois all agree on that figure, which tells me they may not be hp accurate with each other, but they all have been calibrated honestly, so its “close”

-ripp nets ~370hp ~320tq. It is by far the most powerful; includes an Intake. No trans tuning. No carb approval. No sealed airbox. Ripp says you may require additional tuning. Centrifugal may not be best option for a trail truck. They havent gotten carb approval since 2015 kits. 2016 and up still say “pending”

-livernois tune of the magnuson nets ~340hp, ~290tq On an otherwise stock vehicle; but includes higher flow intake pipe. I think they do trans tuning. sealed airbox, no carb approval. 4+week vehicle down time. I do not believe the Magnuson will hit 370hp. If it could, i think Livernois would have gotten it.

-edelbrock tune of the smaller tvs1320 nets ~330hp ~270tq On the stock airbox and intake pipe Less under the curve than the livernois, but peak not far off. Arrives to your door as a turn key box. Cheapest of all the options. Carb approved. Trans tuning included. Sealed airbox. No additional tuning required.

i get the urge to go fast, i really do. But i also need to be able to drive my truck 365 days a year. I dunno. Im going to give it some more time and see what this guy at Magnuson gets done and if they get it turn key. I also need to see a no bullshit real dyno of a carb approved tune from these other vendors making more power, because getting it through carb will cost power for sure. I think with my 80mm throttle body, exhaust, and high flow intake, ill be close to the livernois tune. The 1900 is a bigger blower, but the 1320 can handle a stock mk2 Pentastar just fine. Its 11.3:1 compression for fucks sake. You just dont need that much blower to do well. you wont be able to really recognize the full benefit of a bigger blower without a set of pistons at a minimum; and Id bet money that 1320 has more in it with a pulley, and you can run out of transmission quick if you take the 1900 or a vortex trim ripp is using and spin them to the limit.

 

[DAVECS1]

These engines can run Carb numbers pretty easy, even at high power levels. Cylinder pressure levels are the limiting factor. The heads, intake, and fuel system are capable grenading the block seven ways from sunday. When I bought my setup I was fully under the impression it was a bolt and go as the rest of the products I have received from that vendor have been spot on. I think the wild card is the JT/JL power pack calibration. The 3.6L has been a high volume solid performer for years, but they implemented this latest strategy of system controls that is also used on the Hemi's. It has multiple closed loop controls that "learn" optimal operation. I think the hope was they could tune the adaptive parameters and let it find its own happy place. While this has worked well for 85% of customers, many corner cases have surfaced, and to boot the aftermarket is left with a significant bar puzzle. Some of the first tunes were awesome and then the powerpack controller would adapt itself back to stock lol! I like Edlebrock, I have not seen much of their EFI software stuff I really like, but they make solid hardware. It would be cool if they have figured this out.

 

[KurtP]

These engines can run Carb numbers pretty easy, even at high power levels. Cylinder pressure levels are the limiting factor. The heads, intake, and fuel system are capable grenading the block seven ways from sunday. When I bought my setup I was fully under the impression it was a bolt and go as the rest of the products I have received from that vendor have been spot on. I think the wild card is the JT/JL power pack calibration. The 3.6L has been a high volume solid performer for years, but they implemented this latest strategy of system controls that is also used on the Hemi's. It has multiple closed loop controls that "learn" optimal operation. I think the hope was they could tune the adaptive parameters and let it dind its own happy place. While this has worked well for 85% of customers, many corner cases have surfaced, and to boot the aftermarket is left with a significant bar puzzle. Some of the first tunes were awesome and then the powerpack controller would adapt itself back to stock lol! I like Edlebrock, have not seen much of their EFI software stuff I really like, butthey make solid hardware. I would be cool if they have figured this out.

Having you doing your own tuning on the magnuson is great, and the fact you share it is even better. If magnuson gets carb, and youre letting users slide your tune in, thats a solid win and the biggest reason im waiting.

Edelbrock’s tune has carb approval in a 91 and 93 oct variant, with closed loop operational, and drivability reports so far are unanimously positive from what ive seen, so they have the 1320tvs licked it seems. They use the hptuner and a remapped ecu as opposed to an add on. I havent driven any of them, so just going off what their tuners are willing to share and what user reports come through.

Many tuners took a long time to fully appreciate how insidious LTFT can be from closed loop operation and how much affect it can have.

 

[KurtP]

It will be interesting to see saturated IATs on the edlebrock. With the 1900 IATS always seem to be in check even on long grades with a load. Moving more air without having to squeeze it as much is good. The question is, is 1900 too much and is 1320 enough or just right.

I cant speak from direct evaluation of data; only related data from other platforms. I would guess the 1900 is “oversized” and the 1320 “matched”. Obviously the 1900’s potential is higher/better, especially as engine and trans builds start happening. The stock tvs1320 was able to drive the B8 S4 to the limit. Some people tried 1900 kits but it required engine build. Granted thats a 3.0 not a 3.6, but when considering compression ratio, lower boost, etc, the tvs1320 should be well inside the efficiency range on our 3.6 beyond what the stock block can take.

It would be interesting to see how much more meat the 1900 has vs the 1320 comparing carb tunes on each; right now it isnt a whole lot peak wise, but the 1900 crushes it area under the curve wise. I want to give a few more months for the Magnuson file to continue improving before i decide. My guess is this summer both Magnuson and Edelbrock will have solid driving tunes, and it will come down to picking power or carb cert.

 

[KurtP]

@DAVECS1 what type of restrictions come into play from a tuning perspective to hit CARB numbers? Carb being a big deal was after my time, so it isnt clear to me what hurdles it presents.

 

[mike921921]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but the others do.

Edelbrock doesnt relocate the alternator down on ours.

 

[DAVECS1]

@DAVECS1 what type of restrictions come into play from a tuning perspective to hit CARB numbers? Carb being a big deal was after my time, so it isnt clear to me what hurdles it presents.

There are numbers concerning the levels of particulate and tail pipe gases as well as requirements for equipment and the controls required to run it.
I have not seen all the SC kits, but the kit containing the 1900cc compressor, maintains all the required emissions equipment and controls. The gray area becomes when you manipulate the calibration of the control, but these things are still a challenge to detect from a governing aspect. So that leaves us with tail pipe emissions. This latest operating system from FCA or whomever, is quite impressive in a big picture kind of way. You have to really dig or be a catastrophic monkey to screw up its ability to meet emissions. It runs on adaptive Models that close loop around multiple air fuel ratios for different operating conditions, this goes one step further with automatic transmissions as the torque management is further manipulated to keep the engine in happy spots, so to speak.

With the ability to reliably run the engine "clean" all the time you can get away with stuff that would normally be really light duty.

I find it humerous these engines still require an EGR valve. With the airflow model and VVT it for all intents and purposes is obsolete, but required by emissions. Probably due to the fact people making the rules have a hard time letting 1s and 0s take over even though 90 percent of their communication is digital.

So at the end of the day. Carb practically for any aftermarket company is the ability to maintain all stock emissions equipment and have a passing tail pipe report.

Sorry about the thesis, my mind went a wandering

 

[KurtP]

There are numbers concerning the levels of particulate and tail pipe gases as well as requirements for equipment and the controls required to run it.
I have not seen all the SC kits, but the kit containing the 1900cc compressor, maintains all the required emissions equipment and controls. The gray area becomes when you manipulate the calibration of the control, but these things are still a challenge to detect from a governing aspect. So that leaves us with tail pipe emissions. This latest operating system from FCA or whomever, is quite impressive in a big picture kind of way. You have to really dig or be a catastrophic monkey to screw up its ability to meet emissions. It runs on adaptive Models that close loop around multiple air fuel ratios for different operating conditions, this goes one step further with automatic transmissions as the torque management is further manipulated to keep the engine in happy spots, so to speak.

With the ability to reliably run the engine "clean" all the time you can get away with stuff that would normally be really light duty.

I find it humerous these engines still require an EGR valve. With the airflow model and VVT it for all intents and purposes is obsolete, but required by emissions. Probably due to the fact people making the rules have a hard time letting 1s and 0s take over even though 90 percent of their communication is digital.

So at the end of the day. Carb practically for any aftermarket company is the ability to maintain all stock emissions equipment and have a passing tail pipe report.

Sorry about the thesis, my mind went a wandering

Nah that was helpful thanks.

Sponsored