bd100
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2022
- Threads
- 27
- Messages
- 519
- Reaction score
- 488
- Location
- USA Midwest
- Vehicle(s)
- JT, WK2, ole' Ram
- Thread starter
- #1
- Gladiator Sport S 3.6L 6-speed manual transmission, 3.73 diff, 31.5" highway tires so far.
- WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.6L 8-speed automatic transmission Trailhawk ( skid plates, low range 4x4, electronic limited slip diff, 2" lift air suspension ), 3.73 diff.
- 2nd gen Ram 1500 "Magnum" 5.2L 318 5-speed manual transmission, 3.55 diff, 30.5" AT tires. 300ftlb, around 230hp. About the same tow rating as the JT.
- Fold-down camping trailer. Tows like a pop-up, hard-sided A frame when set up. 1500lb base weight, around 2000 with options and loaded. 4-season, lifted off-road suspension.
I was intending to keep the Ram long enough for my kid to learn on. Solid axles front and back. Stick shift. They don't make anything like that any more. But suddenly... they do! Enter the Gladiator!
One interesting comparison is when you compare Gladiator vs Ram torque per gear. Multiplying torque x gear ratio x differential gear / tire diameter, then dividing Gladiator by Ram, gives:
1: 1.11 2: 0.98 3: 0.95 4: 0.87 5: 0.96 6: 0.86, Reverse 1.10
For example, this Gladiator has a 1.11 to 1 advantage over this Ram in first gear, and a .96 to 1 disadvantage in fifth. Advantage Gladiator in first gear, but mostly comparable across the rest. That's for torque. For horsepower, the Gladiator pulls ahead all over.
And yes the old Ram has the same problem with a reverse which is too tall. I have to hit low range 4wd to back the trailer up a hill into a camping spot. That problem has been around for a long time.
The Gladiator is not as smooth at low RPM, being just 6 instead of 8 cylinders. But it is much sportier to drive. The old truck is frustrating to try to shift quickly.
At first, the Gladiator did not like low RPM at all, but I knew from the WK2 that the automatic with the same engine would routinely choose to putter around at 1200RPM, so I figured the new JT would break in after a bit. Sure enough, by 500 miles the new truck was also fine at low RPM. These days casual around-town driving is much like the old pickup with the same shift points. But it's interesting to see that the computer is probably detuning the engine at low RPM when new.
I have towed this trailer with the WK2. The automatic would downshift a bit earlier than I would with the old truck. I expect the Gladiator will be similar. The WK2 has a short wheel base and the trailer would buck it up and down sometimes. The JT should be better with that, but it does have quite an overhang so maybe not. The old pickup has a longer wheelbase with a shorter overhang from axle to hitch. The WK2 is also short from axle to hitch.
Both pickups have limited slip, but the JT also has a weight bias closer to 50/50. Its axles are shifted forward, placing more weight over the back end. The JT has impressive off-the-line traction in the rain. The WK2 is a rocket off the line, so I was wishing that the full-time 4wd mode was available for manual transmission, but not so much now that I've driven it. (This is compared to a minivan we have with almost 300hp going into the FRONT wheels, plus a touchy throttle. That paint stripe on the pavement at the stop sign? In the rain, you have to be careful not to spin the tires every time. No problem with the pickup, where the back wheels have you going before you even get to the painted stop stripe.)
The Ram is wider, the footwells are larger, and the dash is higher. My wife can barely drive the JT since she has to move the seat so far forward that she almost hits the lower edge of the dash to work the clutch. The Ram has room for the trailer brake controller underneath the dash. On the JT it has to go to the top of the dash.
The old Ram with leaf springs has much less hanging down below the axles. I am in the process of adding the little skid plates to the JT's control arms, shock mounts, CAD, exhaust loop. I'll have to find a skid plate for the exhaust crossover as well.
The tech on the new stuff is great. The old truck has a cassette deck, whoo hoo!
The old truck is simple, straight-forward, gremlin-free, reliable, and the 318 sits in an engine bay big enough to hold the Cummins, so I can actually stand inside the engine bay on one of the frame rails. It has a lot of newer replacement parts, including brake and fuel lines. But the old truck has some leaks which must be addressed, and 25-yr old wiring and computer, so I no longer trust if for cross-country trips. And it's beginning the rust above the wheel wells, despite being garage-kept.
Old truck: 16mpg around town or highway, 13 if towing. WK2 and JT: around 19-20 around town, 23-24 highway, and I got around 17 towing with the Grand.
The JT with sport S shocks and highway tires bounces a few times when I go over the curb at the bottom of the driveway. The old pickup did the same when new. In fact, offroad I got a stiff neck from being rocked side-to-side all the time. Stiffer shock and tires took care of the problem, and I'll do the same for the new JT as well. LT E-range tires give great handling, by the way, which helped a few times for evasive maneuvers through the years.
The WK2 is an automatic wonder car. In other words, when you select air suspension and low range you wait for the computer solenoids to engage and wonder if it will be reliable. I prefer the JT's two shifter levers and non-air suspension. But the WK2 is easier to climb into.
The WK2 Grand Cherokee weighs about as much as the JT and old Ram, even though it's considerably shorter. It's a very dense car and feels like a tank. The Trailhawk version has a lot of skid plates, and I added a few more, but the stupid suitcase muffler sticks down lower than the skid plates... right in the middle of the car where break-over is most likely. The JT has all those control arms and shock mounts sticking down, plus the steering damper. The old ram has very clean axles in comparison. It does have a single skid plate hanging down more than it should at the middle, and I've brushed it a few times, but otherwise it's pretty clean underneath in an off-road sense.
Complaining about your halogen headlamps? Know that the old Rams were worse. Brighter bulbs help some. The JT seems pretty good. Maybe they got smart and started putting in brighter bulbs from the factory.
Complaining about your 3.6L 2000-6000 torque band? The old 318 engine is 3000-4500!
Complaining about your manual transmission shift points? On the old NV3500, I can get up to 50mph pretty well in 1st and 2nd, but then have to hit 3rd gear and wait around a bit to finally get to 60mph.
Upset that you have two overdrives instead of close-ratio gears? I notice around a 10% gain in MPG when I hit 6th gear. Given today's gas prices...
This Gladiator has 4000lb tow, 1600 payload. The old Ram has 4300lb tow, payload 1440lb. Both stick shift. You can carry more than my old full-sized! The WK2 3.6L automatic transmission has 6200lb tow, 1130 payload.
The old Ram does win in bed size. My wife and I used to sleep under the cap. Roof liner, carpet floor and walls, sliding screen windows, air mattresses, shelf for luggage, power cord for fan or heater, tubs bolted to the side for food and water and such, even room for a little porta in the corner. A real go-anywhere 4x4 camper. Then we got the little trailer, but it's like a little boat anchor when it's time to explore. I once had to back it into the woods through a ditch and between trees to turn around. Great for a base camp though.
And the old Ram wins in width and center console size. Convenient diaper-change station! Stacks of maps fit underneath it. And it would have been great to have three across while offroading, but now with the JT they'll have to take turns in the front passenger seat. Until my kid drives, at which point I'll be glad to let him take control! (I hope.)
The new Rams and other full-sized trucks are all automatic shift these days. No coolness in twisting a knob to D. This JT is such a hoot to drive rowing through the gears, even if I still stall the engine sometimes. The old truck must be driven in a relaxed manner, and the WK2 is just point 'n shoot even if it can be quick.
- WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.6L 8-speed automatic transmission Trailhawk ( skid plates, low range 4x4, electronic limited slip diff, 2" lift air suspension ), 3.73 diff.
- 2nd gen Ram 1500 "Magnum" 5.2L 318 5-speed manual transmission, 3.55 diff, 30.5" AT tires. 300ftlb, around 230hp. About the same tow rating as the JT.
- Fold-down camping trailer. Tows like a pop-up, hard-sided A frame when set up. 1500lb base weight, around 2000 with options and loaded. 4-season, lifted off-road suspension.
I was intending to keep the Ram long enough for my kid to learn on. Solid axles front and back. Stick shift. They don't make anything like that any more. But suddenly... they do! Enter the Gladiator!
One interesting comparison is when you compare Gladiator vs Ram torque per gear. Multiplying torque x gear ratio x differential gear / tire diameter, then dividing Gladiator by Ram, gives:
1: 1.11 2: 0.98 3: 0.95 4: 0.87 5: 0.96 6: 0.86, Reverse 1.10
For example, this Gladiator has a 1.11 to 1 advantage over this Ram in first gear, and a .96 to 1 disadvantage in fifth. Advantage Gladiator in first gear, but mostly comparable across the rest. That's for torque. For horsepower, the Gladiator pulls ahead all over.
And yes the old Ram has the same problem with a reverse which is too tall. I have to hit low range 4wd to back the trailer up a hill into a camping spot. That problem has been around for a long time.
The Gladiator is not as smooth at low RPM, being just 6 instead of 8 cylinders. But it is much sportier to drive. The old truck is frustrating to try to shift quickly.
At first, the Gladiator did not like low RPM at all, but I knew from the WK2 that the automatic with the same engine would routinely choose to putter around at 1200RPM, so I figured the new JT would break in after a bit. Sure enough, by 500 miles the new truck was also fine at low RPM. These days casual around-town driving is much like the old pickup with the same shift points. But it's interesting to see that the computer is probably detuning the engine at low RPM when new.
I have towed this trailer with the WK2. The automatic would downshift a bit earlier than I would with the old truck. I expect the Gladiator will be similar. The WK2 has a short wheel base and the trailer would buck it up and down sometimes. The JT should be better with that, but it does have quite an overhang so maybe not. The old pickup has a longer wheelbase with a shorter overhang from axle to hitch. The WK2 is also short from axle to hitch.
Both pickups have limited slip, but the JT also has a weight bias closer to 50/50. Its axles are shifted forward, placing more weight over the back end. The JT has impressive off-the-line traction in the rain. The WK2 is a rocket off the line, so I was wishing that the full-time 4wd mode was available for manual transmission, but not so much now that I've driven it. (This is compared to a minivan we have with almost 300hp going into the FRONT wheels, plus a touchy throttle. That paint stripe on the pavement at the stop sign? In the rain, you have to be careful not to spin the tires every time. No problem with the pickup, where the back wheels have you going before you even get to the painted stop stripe.)
The Ram is wider, the footwells are larger, and the dash is higher. My wife can barely drive the JT since she has to move the seat so far forward that she almost hits the lower edge of the dash to work the clutch. The Ram has room for the trailer brake controller underneath the dash. On the JT it has to go to the top of the dash.
The old Ram with leaf springs has much less hanging down below the axles. I am in the process of adding the little skid plates to the JT's control arms, shock mounts, CAD, exhaust loop. I'll have to find a skid plate for the exhaust crossover as well.
The tech on the new stuff is great. The old truck has a cassette deck, whoo hoo!
The old truck is simple, straight-forward, gremlin-free, reliable, and the 318 sits in an engine bay big enough to hold the Cummins, so I can actually stand inside the engine bay on one of the frame rails. It has a lot of newer replacement parts, including brake and fuel lines. But the old truck has some leaks which must be addressed, and 25-yr old wiring and computer, so I no longer trust if for cross-country trips. And it's beginning the rust above the wheel wells, despite being garage-kept.
Old truck: 16mpg around town or highway, 13 if towing. WK2 and JT: around 19-20 around town, 23-24 highway, and I got around 17 towing with the Grand.
The JT with sport S shocks and highway tires bounces a few times when I go over the curb at the bottom of the driveway. The old pickup did the same when new. In fact, offroad I got a stiff neck from being rocked side-to-side all the time. Stiffer shock and tires took care of the problem, and I'll do the same for the new JT as well. LT E-range tires give great handling, by the way, which helped a few times for evasive maneuvers through the years.
The WK2 is an automatic wonder car. In other words, when you select air suspension and low range you wait for the computer solenoids to engage and wonder if it will be reliable. I prefer the JT's two shifter levers and non-air suspension. But the WK2 is easier to climb into.
The WK2 Grand Cherokee weighs about as much as the JT and old Ram, even though it's considerably shorter. It's a very dense car and feels like a tank. The Trailhawk version has a lot of skid plates, and I added a few more, but the stupid suitcase muffler sticks down lower than the skid plates... right in the middle of the car where break-over is most likely. The JT has all those control arms and shock mounts sticking down, plus the steering damper. The old ram has very clean axles in comparison. It does have a single skid plate hanging down more than it should at the middle, and I've brushed it a few times, but otherwise it's pretty clean underneath in an off-road sense.
Complaining about your halogen headlamps? Know that the old Rams were worse. Brighter bulbs help some. The JT seems pretty good. Maybe they got smart and started putting in brighter bulbs from the factory.
Complaining about your 3.6L 2000-6000 torque band? The old 318 engine is 3000-4500!
Complaining about your manual transmission shift points? On the old NV3500, I can get up to 50mph pretty well in 1st and 2nd, but then have to hit 3rd gear and wait around a bit to finally get to 60mph.
Upset that you have two overdrives instead of close-ratio gears? I notice around a 10% gain in MPG when I hit 6th gear. Given today's gas prices...
This Gladiator has 4000lb tow, 1600 payload. The old Ram has 4300lb tow, payload 1440lb. Both stick shift. You can carry more than my old full-sized! The WK2 3.6L automatic transmission has 6200lb tow, 1130 payload.
The old Ram does win in bed size. My wife and I used to sleep under the cap. Roof liner, carpet floor and walls, sliding screen windows, air mattresses, shelf for luggage, power cord for fan or heater, tubs bolted to the side for food and water and such, even room for a little porta in the corner. A real go-anywhere 4x4 camper. Then we got the little trailer, but it's like a little boat anchor when it's time to explore. I once had to back it into the woods through a ditch and between trees to turn around. Great for a base camp though.
And the old Ram wins in width and center console size. Convenient diaper-change station! Stacks of maps fit underneath it. And it would have been great to have three across while offroading, but now with the JT they'll have to take turns in the front passenger seat. Until my kid drives, at which point I'll be glad to let him take control! (I hope.)
The new Rams and other full-sized trucks are all automatic shift these days. No coolness in twisting a knob to D. This JT is such a hoot to drive rowing through the gears, even if I still stall the engine sometimes. The old truck must be driven in a relaxed manner, and the WK2 is just point 'n shoot even if it can be quick.
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