Gear swap in Overland??? (with LSD)?

[ShadowsPapa]

Am looking at different/better tires for my Overland. The stock tires aren't well respected for snow or ice or snow pack if one looks at the numbers out there. And they have NOTHING on them for snow ratings - no M+S, and no 3 peak mountain. Almost everything would take it up to 33" tires and with the Overland already being geared pretty high, especially for towing use, it would drop the RPM range down to the point I'm afraid the transmission would never hit 8th gear - and/or be forever downshifting and hunting like my Chevy did.
To keep the engine RPM in the "stock range" with 33s it would appear I'd need to "re-gear".
That begs the question - can a person put the 4.10 gear set in the 3.73 equipped axles WITH the optional limited slip?
My Overland has the limited slip option and some have said that you likely can't use 4.10 gears in that differential. I wonder if it's because of the carrier being different.
Normally with a lower gear ratio the pinion gear is smaller, the ring is thicker to it will meet the pinion while with a higher gear ratio the pinion gear is larger and the ring gear thinner to compensate.
With the 3.73 ratio the pinion would be larger diameter, the ring gear thinner - which means the ring gear mounting flange may be too close to the pinion to allow for the thicker ring gear of the lower gear set.
So I could understand that maybe the limited slip carrier used simply won't handle the thicker ring gear of the lower ratio gear set?

Bottom line - can a person put 4.10s in a limited slip Dana 44?
If not I'm sort of screwed on tire choices and have to stick with 32" tires maximum.
I'm asking as my main concern is towing and hills - larger tires will slow the engine and perhaps mess with the shifting to the point it will hunt or never hit 8th. Not as concerned about no load situations.

Thanks

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[RH 67]

The difference between 4:10`s and 3:73`s is not that great and in my opinion not worth the expense. I also believe the axel spline count is different and a new carrier would be needed, it`s not a simple gear swap. Here is a tidbit of info. https://www.differentials.com/technical-help-2/carrier-breaks/

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The difference between 4:10`s and 3:73`s is not that great and in my opinion not worth the expense. I also believe the axel spline count is different and a new carrier would be needed, it`s not a simple gear swap. Here is a tidbit of info. https://www.differentials.com/technical-help-2/carrier-breaks/

As my youngest son might have said 30 years ago "mega-thanks".
That's perfect and exactly what I was wondering. I knew there was a break in there somewhere, I've run into it before on other differentials I've rebuilt like the AMC 20 and 15 when swapping to deeper gears.
That totally settles it - absolutely would require a new carrier (and the work of setting pinion depth, backlash preload and more.on TWO differentials....)

Now to ponder pulling a trailer with 33" tires and 3.73 gears and will the transmission hunt, stay in 6th or will it be a rollercoaster when towing.

 

[TRVLR]

The difference between 4:10`s and 3:73`s is not that great and in my opinion not worth the expense. I also believe the axel spline count is different and a new carrier would be needed, it`s not a simple gear swap. Here is a tidbit of info. https://www.differentials.com/technical-help-2/carrier-breaks/

Haven't gotten mine yet, but as I contemplate options, does this answer change with an M/T?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Haven't gotten mine yet, but as I contemplate options, does this answer change with an M/T?

If the stick has 3.73 differential gears in the Overland, then it can't be changed to 4.10 gears

 

[Renegade]

Haven't gotten mine yet, but as I contemplate options, does this answer change with an M/T?

Nothin to it but to do it. Throw some 33s on there, tow something, then report back. If you don’t like it, change it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yeah, I head ya, and yes, that's true - but - I cringe at the thought of paying 1200-1500 for a set of wheels and tires and then tow and find things aren't working out and going back to the stock smaller tires.
***(before people jump all over those numbers - it's a good full day drive to get a set if I find a set for sale - usually they are in Virginia, Kentucky, CA, CO, etc), then a day back so it's the cost of the wheels and tires, $400 for gas and a hotel - I've done the math.)***

Not wanting to wait for a 6-12 hour road trip to a show to find out, I would prefer to hook up, load a car, strap it down secure and head for our hills to test. It won't tell me how things would work in Colorado Springs area, where I am headed next June, but it would be a tell at least.
Spending over a grand for tires and wheels to find out they ain't gonna work, meh, not so easy.

But I know what you say and am thinking about it. It's harder to get comparisons because so few have Overland with 33" Rubicon take-offs and towing 5,000 pounds. So can't ask "hey, how does YOUR rig work out".

 

[Renegade]

Yeah, I head ya, and yes, that's true - but - I cringe at the thought of paying 1200-1500 for a set of wheels and tires and then tow and find things aren't working out and going back to the stock smaller tires.
***(before people jump all over those numbers - it's a good full day drive to get a set if I find a set for sale - usually they are in Virginia, Kentucky, CA, CO, etc), then a day back so it's the cost of the wheels and tires, $400 for gas and a hotel - I've done the math.)***

Not wanting to wait for a 6-12 hour road trip to a show to find out, I would prefer to hook up, load a car, strap it down secure and head for our hills to test. It won't tell me how things would work in Colorado Springs area, where I am headed next June, but it would be a tell at least.
Spending over a grand for tires and wheels to find out they ain't gonna work, meh, not so easy.

But I know what you say and am thinking about it. It's harder to get comparisons because so few have Overland with 33" Rubicon take-offs and towing 5,000 pounds. So can't ask "hey, how does YOUR rig work out".

I sold my Rubicon take-off tires and wheels (with 500 miles on them) for $850 to someone with a Sport. I imagine he could have made a couple of dollars by selling them again if he didn’t like them. I imagine you might be able to do the same if you are patient.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I sold my Rubicon take-off tires and wheels (with 500 miles on them) for $850 to someone with a Sport. I imagine he could have made a couple of dollars by selling them again if he didn’t like them. I imagine you might be
able to do the same if you are patient.

I agree - I do - IF I lived outside of Iowa.
There is no one selling anything close to me. If I were to buy a set of wheels and tires at 850, say, in GA like I've seen for sale here, it would cost me another 400 to go get them.
What I've seen for sale on FB and CL are well over a grand - for 4 wheels and tires. Most are 1500+ and are a day drive just to get there.

I'd be thrilled to get a set for that price - even 900-1000 if I could get them in a one day trip, something 5 hours away or so.
as I tell folks - this is Iowa - it's a whole other country here. LOL
I know what you are saying and fully agree - being where I am really complicates things so I have to be creative - and like you said - patient.
I hear ya. Your logic is sound.

 

[WhatExit?]

I don’t understand your concerns about going g from 32” tires to 33” tires and gearing issues because of it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I don’t understand your concerns about going g from 32” tires to 33” tires and gearing issues because of it.

My Chevy was constantly "hunting" - shifting up and down with our hills, when I towed with it.
Shifting up or down causes clutch pack wear. More shifting, earlier transmission troubles.
My JT hardly ever hits 8th gear. On our hills with NO load it's constantly between 6th and 7th at 55.
Again, no load.
The Overland has higher axle ratio (numerically lower) and the stock tire size barely puts it in a good place for power on the highway.
At 70 mph it's barely into the 1800 RPM range. 33's would put it in the upper 1700s.
Not a large decrease at all but at that RPM the power will stink.
The engine would be running slower, less power and torque and likely never hitting high gear and perhaps hunting as badly as my Chevy did.
I know it's not a huge drop but my preference would be if these things ran in the upper 1800s and not as slow as they do at 70. I want some RPM out of it so when I hit a hill it will go without dropping two gears down.
I'd much rather be at 1900 than 1800 RPM for pulling any load at all. Empty 1800 RPM isn't horrible, but it shifts a lot and mostly stays out of 8th gear.
I won't know without actually trying, but I know how my Chevy did - every little hill it dropped at least one gear down, sometimes two. That's a lot of shift and thus wear in the transmission.

 

[WhatExit?]

My Chevy was constantly "hunting" - shifting up and down with our hills, when I towed with it.
Shifting up or down causes clutch pack wear. More shifting, earlier transmission troubles.
My JT hardly ever hits 8th gear. On our hills with NO load it's constantly between 6th and 7th at 55.
Again, no load.
The Overland has higher axle ratio (numerically lower) and the stock tire size barely puts it in a good place for power on the highway.
At 70 mph it's barely into the 1800 RPM range. 33's would put it in the upper 1700s.
Not a large decrease at all but at that RPM the power will stink.
The engine would be running slower, less power and torque and likely never hitting high gear and perhaps hunting as badly as my Chevy did.
I know it's not a huge drop but my preference would be if these things ran in the upper 1800s and not as slow as they do at 70. I want some RPM out of it so when I hit a hill it will go without dropping two gears down.
I'd much rather be at 1900 than 1800 RPM for pulling any load at all. Empty 1800 RPM isn't horrible, but it shifts a lot and mostly stays out of 8th gear.
I won't know without actually trying, but I know how my Chevy did - every little hill it dropped at least one gear down, sometimes two. That's a lot of shift and thus wear in the transmission.

I still don’t understand how a tire that’s 1” taller will make any real difference

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I still don’t understand how a tire that’s 1” taller will make any real difference

You've heard of "final straw" or "pushing it over the edge"?
IMO after driving this around for a couple thousand miles in our hills, I've found it to be running too low RPM to have any real power.
It's tempting to gear this thing down as it is - what good is 8th if it never uses it and constantly has to downshift to make the hills when it's not even loaded, only me in it.
Overland with stock tires is running almost 150 RPM lower than Rubicon with stock tires.
33s drop it to under 1800 RPM in 8th gear - almost 200 RPM under the Rubicon engine.
The overland is running close to lugging most of the time.
May not make a huge difference, but I'm going to hook things up and try.
My fear is that since it doesn't hit 8th as it is and constantly has to run in 6th or 7th to make it up any hills, I'm wondering if it will have the guts without staying in 5th all the time.
Under 1800 rpm is not a good place to be running an engine. Harder on them.

 

[Renegade]

You've heard of "final straw" or "pushing it over the edge"?
IMO after driving this around for a couple thousand miles in our hills, I've found it to be running too low RPM to have any real power.
It's tempting to gear this thing down as it is - what good is 8th if it never uses it and constantly has to downshift to make the hills when it's not even loaded, only me in it.
Overland with stock tires is running almost 150 RPM lower than Rubicon with stock tires.
33s drop it to under 1800 RPM in 8th gear - almost 200 RPM under the Rubicon engine.
The overland is running close to lugging most of the time.
May not make a huge difference, but I'm going to hook things up and try.
My fear is that since it doesn't hit 8th as it is and constantly has to run in 6th or 7th to make it up any hills, I'm wondering if it will have the guts without staying in 5th all the time.
Under 1800 rpm is not a good place to be running an engine. Harder on them.

7th and 8th are both overdrive gears. The only reason to have 2 OD gears is fuel economy, not performance. As long as it performs well, don’t worry about what gear it uses.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

7th and 8th are both overdrive gears. The only reason to have 2 OD gears is fuel economy, not performance. As long as it performs well, don’t worry about what gear it uses.

I'm going to find out it if performs well - the only real way to know is try it, I suppose.
So, next warm day that I'm not dealing with shop work, I'm loading things up and going for a drive.
Others have gone to 33" tires, Rubicon "take-offs" and been ok so hopeful. But the tell will be loaded with loaded trailer.

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