Power distribution and wire management - multiple topics

[chorky]

As the title suggests. I already have installed the switch pros (https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/switchpro-sp9000-install.57856/#post-953282), and even with this the electrical is getting busy. The new genesis gen 3 system offers a nice and clean power block on both the positive and negative posts (https://www.genesisoffroad.com/gen3-jt-dual-battery-kit). However, I do not yet have that system. Until then, I need an option.

First and foremost, I do not have the tools or location for fabrication work. Some fab is possible but very restricted so any option needs to be minimal fab work. Second - with future expansion to the genesis system I will need modular ability. Meaning I dont want to use a special dedicated unit thats expensive.
Third - I do plan for a front AND rear mounted winch, so large cables will be everywhere.

Current project is to run 2 6ga positive and 2 6ga negative wires to connect to the ARB dual compressor 10ga wires in the bed. 6ga are needed for the long and high amp run.

To add to this is a question about wire routing. Since the gas tank is on the passenger side there is little access to get wires up under the body inside the frame rail. So I could use suggestions of how to route wires. it seems the only option might be on the outside of the frame. This route, whatever it may be, will also need to handle large welding cable for rear winch, another set of 8ga wire for dc/dc charger, 10ga wire for a water pump, 2 pair of 8ga wire for rear lights, 8 ga wire for bed lights

Additionally, I would like to relocate the spro switch controller. It wont work in the current spot with the genesis system. I am thinking the cowl above the factory distribution box would be a good location. But I will also need to find space to fit a future solar charge controller for a small panel to go on the hood (https://www.cascadia4x4.com/collect...-watt-hood-solar-panel?variant=35469971554456). Cascadia shows to mount their controller on the air intake box, but the distribution box seems a better idea for that. Another idea would be to mount both the spros and cascadia controllers in the empty space of the factory aux battery once the genesis system is installed - although then both would be subject to potential water submersion if water is deeper than the tires. For me that seems unlikely and therefore a preferred location.

Looking for suggestions or simply to see what you did for brainstorming


pic of current setup

Oh, and I could use a solution for this, so I can run wires through it with groments for protection of chafing.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Frankly, it's not that bad to run wires inside the right frame rail. I did it. Granted, I'm talking a smaller wire to power the bumper back up lights, but larger wires could be run inside the frame, too.
I ran the power and ground (2 x 14 gauge) for my 12v outlet and USB charging ports in the truck bed inside a sheath on top of the frame along an existing harness that runs front to back.
So I've done both.
I used some old copper wire to act as a fish tape to pull the wire through the right frame channel when I did that. There's enough holes you can work wires back in the frame a few inches at a time.
The top of the frame is also obviously safe as Jeep ran their own harness up there.

As far as grommets - they make them in just about any size and shape you could imagine, be creative. They also make "blanks" - where the inside hole is up to you, they are closed on the inside. So they can be used to plug holes, or make a hole in the grommet of the size you need.

My plow wiring is going to take up what little space I have left under the hood. There's a lighting isolation box, a large wiring adapter for said box that has 3 large relays and 6 large connectors, 3 (at least, don't have the final one yet) wiring harnesses that will go in the engine bay, that with the winch wiring and solenoid, it's getting tricky under there.........

There will be two more large cables - a negative to the top of the IBS where the winch ground is currently, and a red hot cable to this fuse (under the black plastic cover), they'll go down and forward to the plow.

I got smart and took the feed for the plow system from the hot side of the winch solenoid, thus, the smaller looped cable from the fuse down to the winch solenoid. That keeps just one large cable going to the battery +
Won't be running the winch while wanting to raise or lower the plow or changing plow angle, so it's more than fine.

You don't need a ton of tools for some smaller fabrication. I used stock aluminum angle for the solenoid bracket (which I then modified to hold the plow fuse) and the plastic for the aux switch connections, I used my band saw and a drill press, file, buffing wheel, and so on but hand tools could do a lot of that. I just happen to have years worth of tools so am lucky that way (but it took over 50 years to get what I have, too)

 

[Kevin_D]

...another set of 8ga wire for dc/dc charger, 10ga wire for a water pump, 2 pair of 8ga wire for rear lights, 8 ga wire for bed lights

WHAT are you planning on using for lights?!?
An 8 gauge wire will handle 40A: that's 480 watts!
A legal high-beam halogen headlight is 65W, a flame-thrower type headlight is ~100W.
High-powered LED auxiliary lighting is typically in the tens of watts.
Are you trying to turn night into day?

Kevin

 

[JRobes]

Would it make more sense to mount your second aux battery in the back of the truck somewhere instead of using the Genesis kit? Then you just need a single large pair of cables to tie the rear battery to the main front battery (and battery management), and then you can tie all your rear mounted electrical to that rear battery.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

WHAT are you planning on using for lights?!?
An 8 gauge wire will handle 40A: that's 480 watts!
A legal high-beam halogen headlight is 65W, a flame-thrower type headlight is ~100W.
High-powered LED auxiliary lighting is typically in the tens of watts.
Are you trying to turn night into day?

Kevin

Good catch. I missed seeing the wire gauges (it was late, that's my excuse)
I ran 16 gauge back to my bumper Oracle backup lights - because of the 15' run.
Otherwise, the wire they supply that goes to the lights themselves, the leads to the lights, is more like a 20 gauge at best.
I know Oracle said you need larger wires, but seriously, no, you don't. Not when their own were smaller than the wires going to a 1970s electric wiper motor pulling a #$% of a lot more power.

The original headlight wiring for a quad light system in the 1980s was often 18 gauge - for FOUR halogen headlights.
The wire gauge for the load leveling air shock system used by GM, AMC and others - to the motor, was 16 gauge with 18 and 20 gauge fusible links. That's for a motor running a small air compressor.

When figuring wire needs - base it on 14 volts, not 12 volts. Even sitting there with the engine not running, a charged AGM battery is 12.7-12.8 volts. Running, the system voltage may be 14 volts.
The lights on modern vehicles like the JT are voltage regulated, so no matter what the charging voltage is, they are limited to 13.x volts (I forget the spec exactly)

Anyway, lighting, especially today, doesn't need mega-wire. I could light up part of a bean field to work on a 30' combine head after dark with the lights on my Comanche, including big bright KC lights up on a "roll bar" (actually more of a light bar) and the wiring wasn't over about 18-16 gauge as I recall.

 

[chorky]

Frankly, it's not that bad to run wires inside the right frame rail. I did it. Granted, I'm talking a smaller wire to power the bumper back up lights, but larger wires could be run inside the frame, too.

yeah I do like inside the frame the best. My concern though is wires rubbing on bolts that protrude into the cavity from various mounted items. That and cables in the frame probably would rub and remove the cavity wax over time killing my attempt to prevent rust. But I looked again at the frame and there does seem enough room to route them on top of the frame and tie to existing wire looms. This is what I use for wire protection. Not as good as the solid stuff but much easier to work with.
Keco 100ft – 1/4 inch PET Braided Expandable Cable Sleeve – Wire Sleeving for Audio Video and Other Home Device Cable Automotive Wire - Black https://a.co/d/isdqcmq

WHAT are you planning on using for lights?!?
An 8 gauge wire will handle 40A: that's 480 watts!
A legal high-beam halogen headlight is 65W, a flame-thrower type headlight is ~100W.
High-powered LED auxiliary lighting is typically in the tens of watts.
Are you trying to turn night into day?

Kevin

good catch. Deffinately NOT using 8ga for that. I must have been typing when tired. I plan 12. Just for added protection and I have it available. If i have 14ga I will use that instead.

Would it make more sense to mount your second aux battery in the back of the truck somewhere instead of using the Genesis kit? Then you just need a single large pair of cables to tie the rear battery to the main front battery (and battery management), and then you can tie all your rear mounted electrical to that rear battery.

this is very true. I am not totally certain when I will get a bed mounted (but removable during winter) battery. However, many of these items will be running off of the main vehicle battery as the engine will be on when most of these things are desired to operate. Such as the compressor (powered by aux switch via a relay to the dual 6ga wires), and the rear lights, and other items. the plan is to runa few items (such as water pump) off of a ‘house’ battery in the bed as well so when camped I dont have to start the engine, but when engine is running it will be powered by another aux switch. So dual function. The purpose of this is I live in the north. Lithium batteries do not function when cold very well and are damaged easily. So any bed mounted battery will be removed in the winter (via anderson plug). especially since I wont want to camp when its -30 out…. I also dont know when I will actually be putting up the cash for a dc/dc and bed mounted battery. Genesis system seems much more likely at a sooner date simply to rid myself of potential problems with the aux battery. their new system also offers some great wire management options as well

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You can run wire inside the frame and use ties to hold the wires up to the side of the frame. There are enough holes that you can strap the wires in place up off the bottom of the inside of the frame every few inches.

There will be places for rust that you can't cover with a "wax" or similar substance. It's going to start. You can delay it, yeah, but unless you live in a dry climate and keep the sand and dust washed out of every nook and cranny, it's going to start.
Unless you are 20 YO and plan on keeping the truck until you are 60...............
Where wires might rub aren't the places rust is going to start anyway.

 

[chorky]

So I'm finally picking this back up. I ordered the following from Amazon. Others have done the same.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0834MLS2X?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

But there are a few things to take note of. First, it is not a plug and play situation. Now I am using mine different than others here have. I have removed the included switch, voltmeter, and USB chargers and replaced them with grommets. These grommets will be where wires are routed for bed items.

The thought of drilling into a brand new vehicle makes me cringe. But the reality is this requires some modification. The holes do not match the little squares in picture 2 of my first post. Further, with the switch, voltmeter, and USB chargers installed, the panel won't fit up to the box at all anyway, as the hole required for the panel components is larger than the factory hole in the bed. So....with my limited access to tools, a hobby style (small) grinder came to the rescue with 2 hours of grinding to make the hole larger.

Yes, I cleaned, prepped and painted with rustolium the grinder down fresh steel in hopes to starve off rust. Tomorrow I will also coat with Amsoil HD Metal Protect before installing the panel.

Now - for a question. Using previously found wire sizing charts such as this (http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/newsletter/images/DC_wire_selection_chartlg.jpg). I concluded that TWO 6 ga wires would be needed to power the compressor. The compressor has two 40a fuses. So by that measure I got a 80a circuit breaker (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005BI5466/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1). Now the compressor, by spec, only draws a maximum of 50a under load, so 25a each compressor. It is strange to me then that they would have 80a worth of fuses.

So, since it only should draw a max of 50a (maybe 60 if you factor a safety margin) then 8ga wire should be sufficient. Further, 8 ga wire will be easier to splice into the ARB harness which is only 10ga wire. I have to splice into the ARB harness BEFORE the ARB connector to take advantage of being able to remove the compressor if necessary. So basically I will cut off the wires on the harness side (LEFT side of picture), and splice that into the 8 or 6 ga wires, so that it can plug into the compressor side (RIGHT side of picture).

So the question is, use the 8ga wire, or use the 6 ga wire. The 8 ga wire I already have. If I used the 6 ga wire, then I would need to locate and buy a 60a breaker. My current breaker, 80a, should only be paired with the 6 ga wire so that the breaker blows before wire meltdown.

And, another question, when running grounds of the same wire size, do I really need to run them all the way to the battery negative post? Or can I get away with going directly to chassis ground? And if that's the case, where is a good chassis ground on the passenger rear side under the bed?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The spacing of the holes and the need to cut more of the truck to install the stock Amazon piece is why I made my own acrylic plate with the holes closer together, allowing less cutting.

It is strange to me then that they would have 80a worth of fuses.

Fuses protect wire. If an item draws 25 amps normally, I'd assume then with a fuse that was say, 40 amps, their wire can handle almost 40 amps. Not that they expect the compressor to ever draw that much, just that if the compressor freezes or shorts, the fuse blows, not the wiring.
They are suggesting blow a fuse before something else melts down.
But a fuse should be at the source of the power to protect the wire between the power source and the power consumer.
Anyway, I'd not judge compressor draw by a fuse. A fuse seldom has anything to do with normal draw, or even abnormal draw.

The outlet in your home may have a breaker of 15 amps but you may never even come close to 15 amps at that outlet with lamps and such. That breaker doesn't indicate the load, it protects the wire.

 

[chorky]

The spacing of the holes and the need to cut more of the truck to install the stock Amazon piece is why I made my own acrylic plate with the holes closer together, allowing less cutting.

Fuses protect wire. If an item draws 25 amps normally, I'd assume then with a fuse that was say, 40 amps, their wire can handle almost 40 amps. Not that they expect the compressor to ever draw that much, just that if the compressor freezes or shorts, the fuse blows, not the wiring.
They are suggesting blow a fuse before something else melts down.
But a fuse should be at the source of the power to protect the wire between the power source and the power consumer.
Anyway, I'd not judge compressor draw by a fuse. A fuse seldom has anything to do with normal draw, or even abnormal draw.

The outlet in your home may have a breaker of 15 amps but you may never even come close to 15 amps at that outlet with lamps and such. That breaker doesn't indicate the load, it protects the wire.

yeah I dont have a means to build a plate like that.... it looks nice though. I like the blue accent!

Yes fuses protect the wire, but the fuse and wire still need to be capable of handling the amperage draw planned but not also be way overbuilt. I do find it interesting they use large 40a fuses (2, for a total of 80a) for 10ga wiring when that is right at the limit for the 25a continuous pull. 30a fuses seem more appropriate to me, unless there is a spike amp draw at startup. Each compressor is speced out at 25a draw. For a total combined max 50a draw - thats from ARB. So 80a is 30a over their spec. So the two 6ga wires (for the length of pull) protected with a 80a breaker should be sufficient for the breaker to blow before the wires melt. That combination. I suppose another way to go would be to fuse each wire independently - but I already have the breaker, and dont have a good wire distribution setup under the hood sufficient for independent fuses. To me it makes more sense for them to be breaker protected anyway. But is the 80a breaker and 2 6ga wires overdoing it?

Now it will be interesting to me to see if there are any wire heat problems once the two 6ga wires splice into the 10ga wires. The 10 ga wires will only be maybe 8" long including the harness connector. But I personally have not spliced a large wire (for length of wire pull) into a smaller wire before. In theory, it should be fine. But theory doesn't always work.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

See if you can find the specs for startup draw and running draw. Yes, most motors like that, especially on compressors that don't have a pressure relief to let pressure off the head until it's running, will draw more at initial start. In fact, a lot of equipment has two "draws".
Motor startup is often higher for a brief moment. In the old days they used slow-blow fuses to allow for the extra amperage during startup but they'd blow if there was an overload for more than a second.

 

[chorky]

See if you can find the specs for startup draw and running draw. Yes, most motors like that, especially on compressors that don't have a pressure relief to let pressure off the head until it's running, will draw more at initial start. In fact, a lot of equipment has two "draws".
Motor startup is often higher for a brief moment. In the old days they used slow-blow fuses to allow for the extra amperage during startup but they'd blow if there was an overload for more than a second.

I listed the spec above. ARB only claims one spec and doest specify if it is running or startup. I assume startup because they specify ‘max amp draw’. Max amp draw is 50. So thats 25a for each compressor. It is a dual compressor. I suppose I can try and call them. Not sure how useful that would be though since I am sure the two 6 ga wires is more than sufficient.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not sure how useful that would be though since I am sure the two 6 ga wires is more than sufficient.

For sure.
That's at least as large, if not larger, than the wires on a 2500 pound winch I have for moving cars around, and eventual mounting on my trailer. (and yes, a rolling load on the incline my trailer bed has only requires about 1200 pounds of pull)

 

[chorky]

For sure.
That's at least as large, if not larger, than the wires on a 2500 pound winch I have for moving cars around, and eventual mounting on my trailer. (and yes, a rolling load on the incline my trailer bed has only requires about 1200 pounds of pull)

so do you think I should instead use 8 ga instead? That should also be more than sufficient. Problem is i dont have a smaller breaker. With 8 ga I probably want a 60a breaker instead of an 80…. Since i have the parts I can use them. Was planning to install this week. Thats 10 extra amps than the max pull is spec at. I am not totally sure what to expect for extra resistance in that long of a wire pull. Probably 15’ worth?

its interesting you can get away with that for your winch. Doesnt it pull like 200a?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

so do you think I should instead use 8 ga instead? That should also be more than sufficient. Problem is i dont have a smaller breaker. With 8 ga I probably want a 60a breaker instead of an 80…. Since i have the parts I can use them. Was planning to install this week. Thats 10 extra amps than the max pull is spec at. I am not totally sure what to expect for extra resistance in that long of a wire pull. Probably 15’ worth?

its interesting you can get away with that for your winch. Doesnt it pull like 200a?

That little UTV winch doesn't pull all that much. The 12,000 winch on my truck has much more draw - and much larger wire.
I'll have to go to the garage and see what that little 2,500 winch pulls........

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