Proof that 87 Octane fuel is limiting your 3.6

[Kafn8td]

I'm a proponent of tuning.
That included my 66 Fastback Mustang, yes it has a carb. Different carb, different cams, headers etc. That's all tuning.
The 16 F-150 I had was tuned through the OBD II port, I went mild and it only gained 20hp and 15tq, But the drivability was where it was at.
The 22 Ranger I sold to get my Gladiator had to be tuned. The transmission tuning sucked. When driving normal it skipped every other gear so when you tried to accelerate it had to think about it before it could figure out what it was doing. After the tune (it was a 2.3L turbo) My mileage slightly increased, I picked up 30 hp and it used every gear. I could chirp the tires going from second to third.
One of the big differences is the Fords can be tuned by downloading a tune and plugging a tuner in to the OBD port. Livernois 5 Star
If you don't like modifying a vehicle and think the engineers that designed it were perfect...well don't. The engineers are limited, by budget, design parameters and the good old EPA.

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[bmpcamry09]

I'm a proponent of tuning.
That included my 66 Fastback Mustang, yes it has a carb. Different carb, different cams, headers etc. That's all tuning.
The 16 F-150 I had was tuned through the OBD II port, I went mild and it only gained 20hp and 15tq, But the drivability was where it was at.
The 22 Ranger I sold to get my Gladiator had to be tuned. The transmission tuning sucked. When driving normal it skipped every other gear so when you tried to accelerate it had to think about it before it could figure out what it was doing. After the tune (it was a 2.3L turbo) My mileage slightly increased, I picked up 30 hp and it used every gear. I could chirp the tires going from second to third.
One of the big differences is the Fords can be tuned by downloading a tune and plugging a tuner in to the OBD port. Livernois 5 Star
If you don't like modifying a vehicle and think the engineers that designed it were perfect...well don't. The engineers are limited, by budget, design parameters and the good old EPA.

That Ford 10 speed is actually the whole reason I learned how to tune 7 years ago

 

[Kafn8td]

I believe it!

 

[Glaados]

@bmpcamry09 Curious here, if im already unlocked through livernois, are there different methods of unlock that would possibly not work with HPtuners?

If i only need to buy credits to brush up the livernois tune or even see if theres anything to gain, i wouldnt mind doing that for the sake of knowing. Just dont want to send everything out again and have the jeep down.

Im really happy with my current tune but hey, you never know what you might find in there.

 

[bmpcamry09]

@bmpcamry09 Curious here, if im already unlocked through livernois, are there different methods of unlock that would possibly not work with HPtuners?

If i only need to buy credits to brush up the livernois tune or even see if theres anything to gain, i wouldnt mind doing that for the sake of knowing. Just dont want to send everything out again and have the jeep down.

Im really happy with my current tune but hey, you never know what you might find in there.

The unlock is the same across the board. You won’t need it. You would just need the HP Tuners MPVI and the credits.

Livernois uses a proprietary flasher, so if you were to do a “read” of your Livernois tune, it would probably be encrypted or throw a checksum error. If it wasn’t, then I could build on it or you could flash back to stock and I’d give you my stuff. I’ve never seen their Jeep files. I imagine I do more in my file than they do considering I completely rescale the variable cam tables, eliminate the high lift system, and fully tune the trans. Does Livernois tune the transmission too? Those guys know what their doing, so their final product is likely similar to mine, but I’m sure it’s not 1:1.

 

[Sigz]

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5?

I have a 22 Sport S with 37k miles. Been running 87 octane here in WI since I purchased it. Seems to be running fine, and have had zero issues (outside a few electrical gremlins).

What am I doing wrong with my vehicle with using 87 like the manual says? And what is this tune, and what will it do differently to my JT compared to now?

 

[bmpcamry09]

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5?

I have a 22 Sport S with 37k miles. Been running 87 octane here in WI since I purchased it. Seems to be running fine, and have had zero issues (outside a few electrical gremlins).

What am I doing wrong with my vehicle with using 87 like the manual says? And what is this tune, and what will it do differently to my JT compared to now?

Your not doing anything wrong. You can run 87 octane if you'd like. But your engine is likely not producing the factory rated 285 horsepower especially during hot weather. Since your up north, it's probably not as big of an issue. But in hot weather, you likely has a strategy keeping timing pulled to keep the engine happy.

The tune is a engine and transmission tune. It optimizes your engine to get the most out of whatever fuel you run. The engine won't be fighting that knock sensor pulling your power. You'll get more throttle response and usable power below 3000 RPM where we do most of our driving. The transmission is also tuned to give optimal shift points so the engine does not bog down and is always right where you need it.

To put it simply, 87 in a stock tuned vehicle is deemed "acceptable" by Jeep, but if you put anything higher in, your Jeep with gradually add some power and timing back in to meet factory power rating. Putting 87 octane in a vehicle tuned specifically for it makes it truly optimized for that 87.

 

[Sigz]

Your not doing anything wrong. You can run 87 octane if you'd like. But your engine is likely not producing the factory rated 285 horsepower especially during hot weather. Since your up north, it's probably not as big of an issue. But in hot weather, you likely has a strategy keeping timing pulled to keep the engine happy.

The tune is a engine and transmission tune. It optimizes your engine to get the most out of whatever fuel you run. The engine won't be fighting that knock sensor pulling your power. You'll get more throttle response and usable power below 3000 RPM where we do most of our driving. The transmission is also tuned to give optimal shift points so the engine does not bog down and is always right where you need it.

Thanks for the quick reply.

I'm no mechanic by any means....So this is all over my head.

I have lighterweight 35s on 3.73 and have used JScan to adjust tire size for better shift points. I don't rock crawl, or tow anything too much (4x6 trailer with some lumber and kayaks from time to time).

I usually get gas at Costco (outside of long trips). I know the offer 87 and 93 here. I'm getting about 21-22mpg driving to work and back (27mi one way) with mostly country roads @ 55-65mph until I hit the city.

Seems that everything is fine (to me) with how my enine is running, but I want this to be a forever LONG term vehicle - so I am down to do anything to maximize engine life.

 

[bmpcamry09]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I'm no mechanic by any means....So this is all over my head.

I have lighterweight 35s on 3.73 and have used JScan to adjust tire size for better shift points. I don't rock crawl, or tow anything too much (4x6 trailer with some lumber and kayaks from time to time).

I usually get gas at Costco (outside of long trips). I know the offer 87 and 93 here. I'm getting about 21-22mpg driving to work and back (27mi one way) with mostly country roads @ 55-65mph until I hit the city.

Seems that everything is fine (to me) with how my enine is running, but I want this to be a forever LONG term vehicle - so I am down to do anything to maximize engine life.

I get it!

JScan only corrects the speedometer and aligns everything back up to a stock calibration level, it actually doesn't do anything for your actual shift points within the transmission tune itself. Any perceived differences are simply because your Jeep is reporting accurate data now. There is still a ton to gain by tuning the actual transmission shift points. Shifting is determined by the output shaft speed, or driveshaft speed, directly correlated to your gear size and tire size. As such, making the JScan correction will in fact bring everything back in sync, but the programmed output shaft speed within the tuning stays the same and it's still far from optimized.

I try not to sound like a salesman, in fact I hate sales people lol, but it really is a nice upgrade. Costs less than a set of good tires. A finely tuned vehicle really does improve the everyday experience and my customers will vouch for that. I do 1 Gladiator for every 8 Wranglers typically, but they need it even more than the Wrangler since they are heavier.

 

[Sigz]

I get it!

JScan only corrects the speedometer and aligns everything back up to a stock calibration level, it actually doesn't do anything for your actual shift points within the transmission tune itself. Any perceived differences are simply because your Jeep is reporting accurate data now. There is still a ton to gain by tuning the actual transmission shift points. Shifting is determined by the output shaft speed, or driveshaft speed, directly correlated to your gear size and tire size. As such, making the JScan correction will in fact bring everything back in sync, but the programmed output shaft speed within the tuning stays the same and it's still far from optimized.

I try not to sound like a salesman, in fact I hate sales people lol, but it really is a nice upgrade. Costs less than a set of good tires. A finely tuned vehicle really does improve the everyday experience and my customers will vouch for that. I do 1 Gladiator for every 8 Wranglers typically, but they need it even more than the Wrangler since they are heavier.

Excuse me for skimming over the thread and not being very involved with collecting information but how would and avg Joe like me proceed with this tune?

 

[DAVECS2]

The unlock is the same across the board. You won’t need it. You would just need the HP Tuners MPVI and the credits.

Livernois uses a proprietary flasher, so if you were to do a “read” of your Livernois tune, it would probably be encrypted or throw a checksum error. If it wasn’t, then I could build on it or you could flash back to stock and I’d give you my stuff. I’ve never seen their Jeep files. I imagine I do more in my file than they do considering I completely rescale the variable cam tables, eliminate the high lift system, and fully tune the trans. Does Livernois tune the transmission too? Those guys know what their doing, so their final product is likely similar to mine, but I’m sure it’s not 1:1.

I have tried to help numerous people from that company, they were using diablo and I was not able to work on those calibrations, without going back to stock and unlocking a new ecm

 

[bmpcamry09]

I have tried to help numerous people from that company, they were using diablo and I was not able to work on those calibrations, without going back to stock and unlocking a new ecm

Really? I thought Livernois had their own proprietary device. Right on their website it says 2015 and up Stellantis products require removal for unlock service.

If Livernois requires ECU removal for unlock then it should work even when flashed stock. HP Tuners doesn’t do anything different from other companies in that regard and the unlock is stuck to the ECU. If the ECU was physically removed, cracked open, bootloader modified, then reinstalled and sent back to you, then you shouldn’t need that again to tune with HP Tuners.

If the unlock somehow worked as part of the tuning device remotely (is that what Diablo does? no idea) then you’ll probably need an unlock done to the actual ECU.

You can have your ECU unlocked by any company and multiple platforms will be able to tune it. This isn’t an HP tuner specific thing in my case.

 

[DAVECS2]

The 3.6L is setup to run 14.7 FA as much as possible at zero vacuum. In simple terms, it is running on the least amount of fuel possible with the engine at minimum parasitic loss. This was done to hit an emissions target, in a commuter vehicle.

In a truck, transient response is where work gets done. When you put your foot down on the pedal, the engine was loafing along with a fair bit of vacuum and that vacuum pulls more fuel and air in quickly. The engine goes into a fuel enrichment state and gives the cylinder more fuel it can use to make more power and the timing adjusts to account for the explosions happening sooner.

With a tune you can adjust your 3.6L to run more like a conventional engine. There is a fair bit of information and speculation this is the sweet spot between longevity and performance.

Once your lug curve is actually a lug curve again, you can adjust the shift schedule to take advantage of the new found torque and you now have a truck.

Here are the cons. Yes a stock 3.6L may run longer, it is never loading the engine under most circumstances. Acceleration is happening at lean fuel mixtures. You will not notice some failures as the engine is barely being stressed, so things like work cams and week spark go unnoticed longer. Infact one of jeeps major updates in 2021 was to desensitize the diagnostics to get through warranty.

 

[bmpcamry09]

The 3.6L is setup to run 14.7 FA as much as possible at zero vacuum. In simple terms, it is running on the least amount of fuel possible with the engine at minimum parasitic loss. This was done to hit an emissions target, in a commuter vehicle.

In a truck, transient response is where work gets done. When you put your foot down on the pedal, the engine was loafing along with a fair bit of vacuum and that vacuum pulls more fuel and air in quickly. The engine goes into a fuel enrichment state and gives the cylinder more fuel it can use to make more power and the timing adjusts to account for the explosions happening sooner.

With a tune you can adjust your 3.6L to run more like a conventional engine. There is a fair bit of information and speculation this is the sweet spot between longevity and performance.

Once your lug curve is actually a lug curve again, you can adjust the shift schedule to take advantage of the new found torque and you now have a truck.

Here are the cons. Yes a stock 3.6L may run longer, it is never loading the engine under most circumstances. Acceleration is happening at lean fuel mixtures. You will not notice some failures as the engine is barely being stressed, so things like work cams and week spark go unnoticed longer. Infact one of jeeps major updates in 2021 was to desensitize the diagnostics to get through warranty.

Yep.

What’s interesting is these are actually tuned in fuel to air ratio rather than air to fuel.

But even so, stoich target on these is actually 13.8 to 13.9. Not even 14.1 to 14.7 like most.

I tune in Lambda for this reason to prevent any misinterpretation. Most modern day tuners focus on lambda now due to varying levels of ethanol in fuel.

 

[DAVECS2]

Yep.

What’s interesting is these are actually tuned in fuel to air ratio rather than air to fuel.

But even so, stoich target on these is actually 13.8 to 13.9. Not even 14.1 to 14.7 like most.

I tune in Lambda for this reason to prevent any misinterpretation. Most modern day tuners focus on lambda now due to varying levels of ethanol in fuel.

I am not seeing the 13.8. I am seeing 14.7 all day no matter if you are trying to climb a hill or go to grandma's. I have gigs of data logs at 14.7. Once a machine is changed over to accelerate with and AFR of 13:1 or 12.X:1 most people are pretty pumped, then you adjust timing and their hair if they have ot blows back. I was doing calibrations before ethanol in your fuel was common and I am pretty smitten with SAE units to.

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