EV - not ready for the masses?

[India-ThreeZeroThree]

Hell, Jeep’s own 4xe trim is downright stupid. Worst of all worlds, without excelling at anything. No thanks in its current form for the Gladiator….

4xe is definitely stupid. Making the current design Wrangler/Gladiator into a hybrid or EV anything is about as a smart of an idea like making a deuce and a half a hybrid or EV.

Expect huge design change next generation of Wranglers / Gladiators (if they still make JT's by then). I'm positive this will be the last generation of solid axles. Might be last generation with a frame. They will have to lighten this pig substantially. Maybe we will see that mini wrangler actually come to life.

I'm also convinced we won't see a diesel in a Jeep again.

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[Rusty PW]

Wonder how the military will handle EV's.

I can see it now. A battery powered Abrams in battle run out of juice. A truck pulls up behind it with a spare battery pack. Swap out the battery packs while the bullets are flying past. The truck takes the old battery pack back behind the lines to a storage depot where the battery pack will be recharged with a portable nuke generator.

EV fighter jets? Instead of EV, need ET.

 

[dcmdon]

Disagree on the Rav 4 prime. Power train is the same as the 4xe and totally geared towards getting that $7500 credit. Stupid, and pointless in real world.

Roll out a ‘super charged’ Prius powertain for the rest of us. Tacomas, highlanders, Camrys, whatever…. O, but we need pretend that we ‘care’ and that plugging in makes damn bit of difference…

I'm honestly curious why you would say its stupid and pointless in the real world.
Have you driven a 4xe? It makes the same torque as a 392 but uses half as much gas.

Its actually quite a fantastic driving experience and feels lighter on its feet than a pentastar Wrangler because of the EFFORTLESS power.

How is that useless??

The Rav4 Plugin hybrid similar in concept to the 4xe but different in execution.
The big benefit is 40+ miles of EV range vs 25.

Actually the biggest benefit is that the Rav4 plug in hybrid is a mature product by a company that has been making hybrids for 25 years. Unlike jeep
1) its technicians know how to diagnose and work on them.
2) its service reps know how to support them
3) its parts supply chain has spare parts to support them.
4) it was designed from the ground up to support electrification. It wasn't added as an afterthought like the 4xe

The electric drivetrain has a 10 year, 150,000 mile warranty.

Like the 4xe it gives a fantastic driving experience in hybrid mode with lots of power and tons of torque right off idle.

I'm writing all this assuming that you understand how a plug in hybrid works,. A lot of people think that you have to charge it. You don't.

A lot of people think that you have to drive it in electric mode for the first 25 miles, you don't.

A lot of people think that once the battery will no longer support ev driving, that its completely dead and can't help to provide power as needed. It isn't.

A hybrid is the best of all worlds. The flexibility of a gas powered car with lots of acceleration, great fuel economy and the ability to run all electric for limited distances.

What is bad about any of that?
I'll answer for you. Complexity and weight are both up.

But if its made by a company that has been making reliable hybrids for 20years, then its not an issue. There's no getting around the extra weight. But IMHO its a small price to pay for all that power combined with great fuel efficiency.

 

[dcmdon]

Wonder how the military will handle EV's.

I can see it now. A battery powered Abrams in battle run out of juice. A truck pulls up behind it with a spare battery pack. Swap out the battery packs while the bullets are flying past. The truck takes the old battery pack back behind the lines to a storage depot where the battery pack will be recharged with a portable nuke generator.

EV fighter jets? Instead of EV, need ET.

EV military vehicles make no sense at this point in time because of charge time and the sheer amount of electricity that EVs use. (A car with a 100 kwh battery that can be charged in 6 minutes is drawing one MEGAWATT of power during charging)

But hybrid ones make a ton of sense. If you can reduce fuel use by 40% for a given vehicle, you reduce the logistics overhead to bring fuel to that vehicle by 40%. You will also increase the performance of that vehicle.

 

[Nacho1103]

I just wonder how many coal fired power plants are going to be needed to power all the charging lol. A lot of states have grid issues now, wait til more of the population started charging vehicles. Solar farms aren’t cutting it.

 

[Rusty PW]

I just wonder how many coal fired power plants are going to be needed to power all the charging lol. A lot of states have grid issues now, wait til more of the population started charging vehicles. Solar farms aren’t cutting it.

And you have the NIMBY's. Not In My Back Yard people. They are against putting wind farms and solar fields close to their property. They don't want to look at them and they are scared that it will lower their property value. In mid 2010's. Electric companies wanted to put up a new transmission line to help with the load. The 525 and 765 KV lines are already stressed. The line would run from south west Pa. through Md. and WV. towards DC. The NIMBY's got their way and shot it down. There was talk about using a National Security law to get away the NIMBY's, but some congressmen got involved and stopped it dead. Now the DC metro area is limited to the amount of power they receive.

99% of the people here do not know how the electric grid works. Electric is made and flows to the greatest demand. Most of the electric made in western Pa. flows to the DC metro area. It has the greatest demand. At the power plant I worked at. We had maps of the US with every power plant, it's fuel type, compacity, grid connection, and location. Plus every transmission line, by voltage, from 220 KV to 765 KV. And transformer stations. You won't see these maps on line because of Homeland Security.

Read all you want on line about making electric. Until you work at a power plant. All you are doing is blowing smoke up your own ass. I started as a mechanic/welder and worked my way to be the senior control room operator. I know the power plant inside out. Plus daily dealing with PJM grid operations.

 

[Geoarch]

I thought Toyota didn't do custom orders for anything?

Seems so.

 

[Glad_he_ate]

I’m about 15 minutes from Nine Mile 1 nine mile 2 and fitz. The nimbys are bad here as well. No one local seems to bitch about the solar farms clearing all kinds of forest, mention adding another nuke to the mix and it’s the end of the world. Same with wind farms in the area.

And you have the NIMBY's. Not In My Back Yard people. They are against putting wind farms and solar fields close to their property. They don't want to look at them and they are scared that it will lower their property value. In mid 2010's. Electric companies wanted to put up a new transmission line to help with the load. The 525 and 765 KV lines are already stressed. The line would run from south west Pa. through Md. and WV. towards DC. The NIMBY's got their way and shot it down. There was talk about using a National Security law to get away the NIMBY's, but some congressmen got involved and stopped it dead. Now the DC metro area is limited to the amount of power they receive.

99% of the people here do not know how the electric grid works. Electric is made and flows to the greatest demand. Most of the electric made in western Pa. flows to the DC metro area. It has the greatest demand. At the power plant I worked at. We had maps of the US with every power plant, it's fuel type, compacity, grid connection, and location. Plus every transmission line, by voltage, from 220 KV to 765 KV. And transformer stations. You won't see these maps on line because of Homeland Security.

Read all you want on line about making electric. Until you work at a power plant. All you are doing is blowing smoke up your own ass. I started as a mechanic/welder and worked my way to be the senior control room operator. I know the power plant inside out. Plus daily dealing with PJM grid operations.

 

[Klutch]

We need to stop calling these things EV’s or electric powered.

They’re not electric powered. They’re coal powered. Fossil fuel powered. The whole damn thing is a virtue signaling pipe dream.

That's an overly negative impression. Renewable energy is a small part of the American power grid, but it is a part of it and it's growing. Also, if you charge an EV from a natural gas power plant, that produces much less carbon than filling the tank with gasoline or diesel. If the power plant is nuclear, even better.

 

[dcmdon]

Hydro is the only other energy source other than fossil or nuclear that is anywhere near reliable.

Wind? Solar? GTFOH with that. Weather has a mind of its own and it’s anything but reliable.

Like I said, we need to stop BS’ing ourselves with this “EV” thing. All these Teslas etc need to plug into a grid that is, by and large, still dependent on fossils fuels, or hydro.

The grid is NOT ready for what these “green energy” shills are selling.

Another vote for hybrids then??

 

[The Duck of Earl]

......

I'm writing all this assuming that you understand how a plug in hybrid works,. A lot of people think that you have to charge it. You don't.

......

A hybrid is the best of all worlds. The flexibility of a gas powered car with lots of acceleration, great fuel economy and the ability to run all electric for limited distances.

What is bad about any of that?
I'll answer for you. Complexity and weight are both up.

.....

I agree that hybrids can be attractive. However, plug-in hybrids are stupid. They are a compliance car, and yes you do need to plug it in regularly to get the full benefit out of the powertrain - otherwise you are carrying around a bunch of unneeded/unused extra weight.

For instance the battery pack in a regular Prius weighs about 100 pounds. The battery pack in the 4xe weighs almost 300 pounds. All this extra weight to get that trivial amount of 'all-electric' range just so the car's mpge is high enough to qualify for compliance credits (both to the consumer and corporate fleet).

I'd rather see Jeep pair a much smaller battery pack with the Pentastar and ditch the plug-in crap. Think like the F150 Powerboost. This would be much more practical and useable in everyday driving (and even better for longer distances and the generator feature would be slick).

 

[dcmdon]

I just wonder how many coal fired power plants are going to be needed to power all the charging lol. A lot of states have grid issues now, wait til more of the population started charging vehicles. Solar farms aren’t cutting it.

Coal fired plants are no longer being built. Not because they pollute. But because the miracle of fracking has made natural gas cheaper. Which is great for everyone except for coal miners.

Grid issues are real. But they will sort themselves out. The wonderful thing about capitalism is that then there is a profit to be had businesses will invest in infrastructure. We just need to give them time.

 

[dcmdon]

I agree that hybrids can be attractive. However, plug-in hybrids are stupid. They are a compliance car, and yes you do need to plug it in regularly to get the full benefit out of the powertrain - otherwise you are carrying around a bunch of unneeded/unused extra weight.

For instance the battery pack in a regular Prius weighs about 100 pounds. The battery pack in the 4xe weighs almost 300 pounds. All this extra weight to get that trivial amount of 'all-electric' range just so the car's mpge is high enough to qualify for compliance credits (both to the consumer and corporate fleet).

I'd rather see Jeep pair a much smaller battery pack with the Pentastar and ditch the plug-in crap. Think like the F150 Powerboost. This would be much more practical and useable in everyday driving (and even better for longer distances and the generator feature would be slick).

You keep saying its all about compliance, but dont' give any explanation for or defense of that statement.

To compare the battery in a 5000 lb Wrangler with the aerodynamics of a brick with a Prius is kind of pointless. We should expect the battery in the Wrangler to be larger and heavier if for no other reason than the fact that the Wrangler takes 3 times as much power to go down the road at highway speed.

A better comparison would be between the Plug-in Hybrid Rav4, the regular hybrid Rav4, and the pure ICE RAV4. The plug in, with a larger battery is faster and more fuel efficient in all cases, even if you don't charge it. This is because the larger battery can accept greater charging currents during regernative braking and can put out more power when accelerating.

You do need to plug it in to get the most out of it. But its optional. I park my cars in an attached garage at night. I can EASILY benefit from having a full battery in the morning.

My friend's idiot brother with the Tesla parks on the street in Brooklyn at night. A plug in may not be worth it for him. But then again, it might be if he wants the extra acceleration. (The plug in hybrid has 60 more hp than the non-plug in)

If a manufacturer can produce a reasonably priced, reliable hybrid drivetrain and can support it with parts and service, there is quite literally NO down side to it. Not just for the big Government nannies, but for the consumers, who benefit from big power, huge torque, longer range, and lower fuel costs.

Imagine how awesome a well engineered hybrid would be for overlanders who typically have to carry a bunch of extra fuel with them because their trucks dont' have the range they need.

As an aside, fuel costs are a real thing for many Americans. Since this is a group dedicated to a $50,000+ vehicle, people here are going to be more well off than most Americans.

But if you do some back of the napkin math you see that if a family had 2 cars that do a total of 25,000 miles and have an average fuel economy of 18 mpg, that is almost 1400 gallons per year.

At $4.50/gal that is $6300 per year, or $525 per month.

Not an inconsequential amount. If a hybrid costs an extra $5000, financed over 72 months that is an extra $78 per month. So to switch to 2 hybrids, the monthly nut would be $156.

If that families vehicles get 30 mpg rather than 18 (reasonable for a hybrid) then they will use 833 gallons of gas in a year. At $4.50 that's $3750/yr.

This is a savings of $2550 per year or $213 per month. Netted out with the extra $156 in payments and you end up with a savings of $57/month. Plus the benefit of more power and longer range.

Forget payback period. Calculated this way, you put zero extra out of pocket at purchase, and the savings add up from day 1.

 

[Geoarch]

I thought Toyota didn't do custom orders for anything?

Maybe that sales guy was blowing smoke. She's moved on to Subaru, which will come out with a plug-in hybrid Forester next year. She's had a Forester for nine years and not a problem.

 

[The Duck of Earl]

You keep saying its all about compliance, but dont' give any explanation for or defense of that statement.

i.e. - for the consumer, regular hybrids do not qualify for the $7,500 credit, but plug-ins do... and for the manufacturer plug-ins get them better CAFE numbers (based on theoretical numbers assuming the consumer is plugging in and using the pure electric mode all the time). The all electric party trick is stupid to me given its finite range and even then, you are only driving with 134 horsepower / 181 pound-foot (only reason this all-electric mode makes sense is like in European cities where they might have no combustion vehicle zones or restricted access depending on time of day).

The F150 powerboats only has a 1.5kw battery pack that adds like 70lbft of torque (for a total of like 470lbs). Can't find the exact weight, but it would be significantly less than the 15kw (usable size) battery in the 4xe (which while it does adds 181 lb ft of torque, keep in mind the starting point with the 2.0t).

And you don't have to plug in the f150 to get the full benefit, even in its small sized battery pack (compared to the 4xe and other plug-ins) it just works returning a pretty decent jump in gas mileage and power and just recharges as you drive.

And you don't have to pay to install a charger (assuming there is a decent place for you to have one) only to still have to go to the gas station...

So with all the compromises, I just can't see how a plug-in hybrid is better than a robust and right-sized traditional hybrid system.

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