Test with simulated tongue weight - yikes! No wonder the RAKE

[ShadowsPapa]

I do NOT know the weight of these blocks - if anyone here does hardscaping or retaining walls, maybe they can answer the weight question.
I have been looking into reducing the rake of this Overland. I don't mind some and I "get" the why of a pickup with rake - especially if it's truly used as a pickup and/or tows. You don't want your butt dragging like a dog that's just taken a dump and is trying to clean off.

So I thought - I had contacted a shop that has the stuff and even does the leveling and such (they quoted 450 for the parts, labor and alignment to level it) but I thought- I don't KNOW how much rake I want taken out - or if I want it level or just better?
How the heck would I possibly know until next spring when I uncover my cars, get the trailer prepped, load up and strap a car on and hitch up??? That's weeks or months away. i'd like to know NOW what to expect!
Overlands are wimps. That's the summary - and now I'm really worried.

OK, Again, I do not know what these blocks weight.
What I did for my test - I have a platform that goes into a 2" receiver.
I measured the height of the back bumper and the bottom of the square hole in the receiver.
I got 23.5" ground to "step" in the back bumper, 18.5 ground to the bottom of the receiver hole.
I measured the bottom of the running boards to the ground.
Those were 15.25" ground to bottom of front of running board and 17" from ground to bottom of the rear of the running board.
About a 1.75" difference front to rear.
That's the starting points, unloaded, truck empty.
I put the platform in the receiver on the back of the JT
I loaded it up with 8 concrete retaining wall blocks. I don't know if they are 50 or 60 or 70 pounds, have no idea. I have no scale.
I got in the truck and instantly knew I had a problem - I was looking more up, at the hood, and felt like my butt was sagging.
I put the truck back where it was when I first measured things to be sure it was apples to apples.
I measured again -
The bumper was now 19.5" from the ground - a loss of 4" The hitch measurement showed the same drop.
The running board measurement was now 15.75 front and 15.75 rear. The front went up about .5" and the back dropped.

So with a tongue weight of only 400 pounds IF IF IF those blocks are only 50 pounds x 8 means the back of that truck will drop a whopping freakin' inches.
And if my tongue weight is 10% of the total trailer weight of 4600 pounds, that's another 60 pounds back there, dropping it even more.
Now if those blocks are say 60 pounds each times 8, that's 480 pounds and this would be about what my trailer tongue weight would really be but still that's a hell of a drop and it means I can't level the truck even a tiny bit, not at all. I have to leave all of the rake in just to have it sit lower than level in the back once loaded.
I think I am in very big trouble. I knew the payload was slim at a bit over 1,000 pounds and the towing rating was only 6,000 pounds but I never expected the rear to be on the ground when loaded. If I put 1,000 pounds in the back of that truck I'd be hunting raccoons with the headlights.

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[ShadowsPapa]

I looked up the specs on those blocks. They are ALL 8 of them the same. They are 6" tall by 12" deep by 16" wide and Menards says 58 pounds each, Lowe's says 61 pounds each.
Either way, that's about 450 pounds. If I pull my car hauler at 1500 pounds with a 3100 pound car, that's 4600 pounds trailer with car. Tongue weight of 10% is 460 pounds. That means with no other gear at all, this truck will sag over 4" on the back!
Wow.
I'm well under the 6,000 pound tow limit with my rig, 4600 pound loaded trailer, but this test shows the back of my Overland will drop 4" and that's not counting any tools or parts in the bed! I still have another 400-500 pounds of payload I could add according to spec but not with this amount of drop.
Basically, I can't tow my rig with this truck.

This is a link to the sort of blocks those are - all 8 of them are concrete retaining wall blocks, all identical. 6x12x16 55-61 pounds each.

 

[Koja]

This why they put the heavy tow package on the Rubicon and not the overland.. Id look at swapping out the springs to the heavier duty ones or look into Air Bags

 

[Majormajor]

This why they put the heavy tow package on the Rubicon and not the overland.. Id look at swapping out the springs to the heavier duty ones or look into Air Bags

Or you could add ride control air bags.

 

[Koja]

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Exactly - however, no one even close to Iowa ever swaps out the springs I need. They are all in KY, FL, CO, ME, WA, etc. - I've been looking for "take-offs" for some time now - nothing even close to me. I'd likely be better off with max tow springs.
I want to avoid air bags - don't want the maintenance or having to air them up and down, etc. Rather do this with springs.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Or you could add ride control air bags.

Don't want the maintenance and hassle of bags.......

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Very aware of the specs - but never expected a 4" plus drop with only 450 pounds of weight. These are rated over 1,000 pounds payload - no way you could do that without shooting the headlights into the trees. And if you towed a 5500 pound trailer, 500 under the max, you'd have another hundred pounds tongue weight. That would likely drop this at least another half inch.
The specs don't say "you will bottom out".
You are supposed to be able to tow 6000 pounds - no way with these springs. 600 pounds on the tongue would sink this thing.

 

[Koja]

Exactly - however, no one even close to Iowa ever swaps out the springs I need. They are all in KY, FL, CO, ME, WA, etc. - I've been looking for "take-offs" for some time now - nothing even close to me. I'd likely be better off with max tow springs.
I want to avoid air bags - don't want the maintenance or having to air them up and down, etc. Rather do this with springs.

Sevrel guys do the swaps and shipping inst usually much. I know that Ride tech has some great systems that you can put onboard air and have it run incab. I had bags on my 2500HD silverado. and when i set 96 of the blocks in the bed of the truck and another 100 on the car trailer with the bags up at 100PSi it road like a caddy, here i have 325 three string bails of Hay on.

 

[Koja]

Very aware of the specs - but never expected a 4" plus drop with only 450 pounds of weight. These are rated over 1,000 pounds payload - no way you could do that without shooting the headlights into the trees. And if you towed a 5500 pound trailer, 500 under the max, you'd have another hundred pounds tongue weight. That would likely drop this at least another half inch.
The specs don't say "you will bottom out".
You are supposed to be able to tow 6000 pounds - no way with these springs. 600 pounds on the tongue would sink this thing.

your putting 450lbs out past the end of the truck, where they do there measurements is directly over the axle, not saying that you would have that much tongue weight. Givin the size of rig and towing, Id opt for air bags and a load equalizing hitch, that forces more weight )(load) back up to the front axle. Here is a great description of how it all comes together.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm

 

[ShadowsPapa]

your putting 450lbs out past the end of the truck, where they do there measurements is directly over the axle, not saying that you would have that much tongue weight. Givin the size of rig and towing, Id opt for air bags and a load equalizing hitch, that forces more weight )(load) back up to the front axle. Here is a great description of how it all comes together.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/tongue-weight.htm

Talking tongue weight and the blocks are where that would be. Payload would be over axle.
Cannot use an equalizer hitch on an all-aluminum trailer - they not only say no, you void the warranty. No one uses equalizers on aluminum trailers because of the unusual stresses it places on them.
I've used equalizing or load-leveling hitches with campers and my huge heavy car hauler of years ago so know about equalizers, thanks anyway.
(I used curt's towing site to verify my math and figuring just to be sure I remembered the percentages and so on.)

With a conservative estimate of 4600 pounds (1500 trailer + 3100 car) and the typical/normal 10% of that for tongue weight, that's 460 pounds on the receiver, like I have. That's pretty much where a tongue weight would be.
Imagine if the tongue weight was actually 500 pounds - with a tow rating of 6,000 pounds I could get up to 5500 pounds and have a 550 pound tongue weight, talking the back of this down even more than the 4" drop at 450 pounds. Add another 100 to that and how much farther would it drop? Scary.
Tongue weight is never measured over the axle, it's measured where the tongue of the trailer touches the ball on the hitch.

Don't want air bags - have seen them go bad in the middle of a tow -

My wife suggested pulling a car out of storage, taking the trailer out of storage, loading up and going for a drive. I think I had better do just that but have no brake controller yet. She is also asking - will this truck even do it?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Sevrel guys do the swaps and shipping inst usually much. I know that Ride tech has some great systems that you can put onboard air and have it run incab. I had bags on my 2500HD silverado. and when i set 96 of the blocks in the bed of the truck and another 100 on the car trailer with the bags up at 100PSi it road like a caddy, here i have 325 three string bails of Hay on.

Yeah a lot of the folks here do the swaps - but most say "will not ship" or "not interested in shipping" or "local only". Otherwise I'd buy a full setup - or maybe do what my wife suggests - see if this can even pull that trailer with a car on it.

I'd likely be better off with at least max tow springs, Rubicon shocks

 

[Koja]

Talking tongue weight and the blocks are where that would be. Payload would be over axle.
Cannot use an equalizer hitch on an all-aluminum trailer - they not only say no, you void the warranty. No one uses equalizers on aluminum trailers because of the unusual stresses it places on them.
I've used equalizing or load-leveling hitches with campers and my huge heavy car hauler of years ago so know about equalizers, thanks anyway.
(I used curt's towing site to verify my math and figuring just to be sure I remembered the percentages and so on.)

With a conservative estimate of 4600 pounds (1500 trailer + 3100 car) and the typical/normal 10% of that for tongue weight, that's 460 pounds on the receiver, like I have. That's pretty much where a tongue weight would be.
Imagine if the tongue weight was actually 500 pounds - with a tow rating of 6,000 pounds I could get up to 5500 pounds and have a 550 pound tongue weight, talking the back of this down even more than the 4" drop at 450 pounds. Add another 100 to that and how much farther would it drop? Scary.
Tongue weight is never measured over the axle, it's measured where the tongue of the trailer touches the ball on the hitch.

Don't want air bags - have seen them go bad in the middle of a tow -

My wife suggested pulling a car out of storage, taking the trailer out of storage, loading up and going for a drive. I think I had better do just that but have no brake controller yet. She is also asking - will this truck even do it?

Not ment as a insult to you, Some folks just don't know, that's why i was giving the info i gave. Well if you find something in wa state let me know I'll ship for ya.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Not ment as a insult to you, Some folks just don't know, that's why i was giving the info i gave. Well if you find something in wa state let me know I'll ship for ya.

I know I come across harsh, but I understood you were trying to be helpful and you never know if I, or someone else, missed something.

 

[Gatorized]

Check with Motor Inn - I know buyers were having lifts installed at the dealer but don’t know if they were taking the take-offs with them or leaving them at the dealer. Either way - you can leave your contact info in case something comes up.

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