Opinions on actual labor vs. charged labor for a service at a shop.

[ShadowsPapa]

This IS WHY I never go to my local dealership unless oil change, etc... that's covered. They charge ridiculous prices to do anything. And they wonder when I stop by and ask why I didnt have them do my upgrades - told them point blank, "I'm all for capitalism, but when you're clearly overcharging me and putting excessive money in your pockets it's a big no go for me."

Love the conspiracy theorists. Really, apparently a lot of people have never been in business, don't understand the costs, the expenses of having a building and all of the costs of employees- including but not limited to insurance, the employer's part of social security - for every dollar an employer pays you, they also pay 6.2% to the SSA for their half of YOUR social security, and another almost 1.5% for YOUR Medicare. Having employees is expensive. Then there's the high cost of insuring such a shop - not only for work place injuries, but the insurance covering cars that are left in their care and custody. And that's just a fraction of the costs the employer has.
The employee must be paid a living wage - it's not free to go to school these days - do you want a Youtube trained cousin bubba working on your vehicle, or someone who has experience, formal training, and the tech information at their fingertips?
Install quality, safe lifts in a commercial shop - you may have one and think gee, these are only 2500, what's the big deal? Very difference equipment in many shops vs. what YOU buy and put in place. Theirs are used daily, over and over and over and over by many people.
And then the fire suppression and prevention required in a shop with gas and oil............... passing annual inspections - oops, these fire extinguishers are old - gotta buy new ones - not home-owner stuff, but quality extinguishers. The cost of heating and lighting a shop. I would know a tiny bit about that myself........ been in business myself and even today I spend a lot of money keeping a shop decent to work in. And their doors are open and closed a lot. I can recall working on cold vehicles in minus 10 or minus 20 degree weather. So add heating and lighting - commercial lighting is expensive to buy - expensive to operate and now and then it goes south and needs to be serviced or replaced. Air compressors - not cheap for GOOD ones, and they wear out and need maintenance. Cleaning the shop, EPA and other regs - they must properly dispose of the chemicals used in the shop, all of the hundreds of gallons of oil, the solvent in their cleaning tanks - check out what that costs today just for 5 gallons of a quality cleaning solvent, then figure how often that must be replaced in a commercial shop.
I've owned businesses, I've had employees, I've had to deal with the EPA and DNR on chemicals. I've dealt with the fire departments and inspections (I was head of the buildings and grounds for On With Life in Ankeny, Iowa and a good fire inspection by a good inspector - well.... it's necessary, but takes time and money to be SAFE. Where conduits and pipes penetrate walls, that must be sealed. Wiring in a plenum type ceiling must be of a certain type.
And you think they are pocketing it all......... you have no idea but call them out anyway.
I've been that tech, I've owned businesses, I've gone through the inspections and changes needed to pass, I've paid all of those taxes.

My local Jeep offroad shop guys in Las Vegas are honest, they only charge me for what they do on my JT

And that's true of most dealer shops as well - but it's not cheap owning a large shop. And of course every time I hear someone say "xxx shop is cheap and good" I wonder - really? How is it even possible to be both today? I bet anything I could find something wrong in the work - I'd bet on it. (but then I'm the only person to ever get a perfect score on the Plymouth Troubleshooting tests in Iowa and set record time to judging with the car itself)

All I'm saying is that it's just amazing how people who have never been there will have a fit over the costs.
Maybe for some, China has it right. Everyone paid the same regardless of skills or experience or formal education.
Me, I will pay for the best. Training and experience, quality work, comes at a cost. if you aren't willing to pay for that - and on an expensive vehicle like a high-priced Gladiator? Amazing. I can see it on a Yugo, but to cheap out on these? Makes no sense.

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[ShadowsPapa]

My $0.02 - keep the change
If they put 2 guys on this to get the work done faster - great! I want my toys back as fast as possible.
Time is a stupid metric for the customer - all you care about is results. As long as you are satisfied with the results and the price - you are fine. Also, I try to think of my relationship with my shop as just that - a relationship. I don’t want to beat them up over minor things as long as they are being fair and reasonable because I know a day will come when they’ll eat some extra time or cost or go the extra mile for me - basically golden rule… it has never failed me.

Sounds like the relationship I've built with the dealership I've been going to - where they all but cut the bill in half for me - literally knocking about 40% off the top. And the other time the service advisor spent 45 minutes with me and my truck figuring out the temp sensor only to find it was likely my snow plow causing the issue - no charge.

Here's what a friend (actually both of them) told me when I asked about how to price my work - they said I needed to raise my prices. People who want quality will pay for it, I didn't want the gripers and whiners or those who fussed over 10 bucks on a $300 job. So I upped my prices, I am still very busy and am getting top hobby people doing blue ribbon restorations as my customers. No advertising needed and most of the time when I submit the bill - they add extra. one guy picked apart my bill and for every line item he added money and literally his check in the end was double what I charged him.
They were right - I got rid of the whiners and gripers, my customers are now the best of the best and not a single person has complained about the prices. Some people actually figure if the price to so xyz work is too cheap, it can't be good.
Bottom line - I upped prices, now my customers are top tier people, and no gripers, they are all very patient laid back people. Fine, I don't need the others. Let them get what they pay for.

 

[JarHeadLV]

Love the conspiracy theorists. Really, apparently a lot of people have never been in business, don't understand the costs, the expenses of having a building and all of the costs of employees- including but not limited to insurance, the employer's part of social security - for every dollar an employer pays you, they also pay 6.2% to the SSA for their half of YOUR social security, and another almost 1.5% for YOUR Medicare. Having employees is expensive. Then there's the high cost of insuring such a shop - not only for work place injuries, but the insurance covering cars that are left in their care and custody. And that's just a fraction of the costs the employer has.
The employee must be paid a living wage - it's not free to go to school these days - do you want a Youtube trained cousin bubba working on your vehicle, or someone who has experience, formal training, and the tech information at their fingertips?
Install quality, safe lifts in a commercial shop - you may have one and think gee, these are only 2500, what's the big deal? Very difference equipment in many shops vs. what YOU buy and put in place. Theirs are used daily, over and over and over and over by many people.
And then the fire suppression and prevention required in a shop with gas and oil............... passing annual inspections - oops, these fire extinguishers are old - gotta buy new ones - not home-owner stuff, but quality extinguishers. The cost of heating and lighting a shop. I would know a tiny bit about that myself........ been in business myself and even today I spend a lot of money keeping a shop decent to work in. And their doors are open and closed a lot. I can recall working on cold vehicles in minus 10 or minus 20 degree weather. So add heating and lighting - commercial lighting is expensive to buy - expensive to operate and now and then it goes south and needs to be serviced or replaced. Air compressors - not cheap for GOOD ones, and they wear out and need maintenance. Cleaning the shop, EPA and other regs - they must properly dispose of the chemicals used in the shop, all of the hundreds of gallons of oil, the solvent in their cleaning tanks - check out what that costs today just for 5 gallons of a quality cleaning solvent, then figure how often that must be replaced in a commercial shop.
I've owned businesses, I've had employees, I've had to deal with the EPA and DNR on chemicals. I've dealt with the fire departments and inspections (I was head of the buildings and grounds for On With Life in Ankeny, Iowa and a good fire inspection by a good inspector - well.... it's necessary, but takes time and money to be SAFE. Where conduits and pipes penetrate walls, that must be sealed. Wiring in a plenum type ceiling must be of a certain type.
And you think they are pocketing it all......... you have no idea but call them out anyway.
I've been that tech, I've owned businesses, I've gone through the inspections and changes needed to pass, I've paid all of those taxes.



And that's true of most dealer shops as well - but it's not cheap owning a large shop. And of course every time I hear someone say "xxx shop is cheap and good" I wonder - really? How is it even possible to be both today? I bet anything I could find something wrong in the work - I'd bet on it. (but then I'm the only person to ever get a perfect score on the Plymouth Troubleshooting tests in Iowa and set record time to judging with the car itself)

All I'm saying is that it's just amazing how people who have never been there will have a fit over the costs.
Maybe for some, China has it right. Everyone paid the same regardless of skills or experience or formal education.
Me, I will pay for the best. Training and experience, quality work, comes at a cost. if you aren't willing to pay for that - and on an expensive vehicle like a high-priced Gladiator? Amazing. I can see it on a Yugo, but to cheap out on these? Makes no sense.

What's AMAZING to me is people like you who REPLY without knowing anything about the person you're commenting on. I've own a few businesses - I've been self employed my whole life except my service in the Marines. I'm a financial advisor and I can tell you I 100% KNOW more about business, finances, expenses, insurance then you'll ever know.

Sounds like you're getting "offended" because you've been a mechanic. What you don't understand is my gripe is with the dealers, NOT the actual smaller specialty shops. I can get just as good a mechanic at a specialty Jeep shop as I can get through a dealership mechanic. - - except for the extra costs. Alot of them come from dealerships anyway. WHY would I go buy a product from my local dealer for 20% -25% higher costs when I can shop around and get a better deal? Only an idiot wouldn't. There's NO defending that. It's called being smart. I'm not griping about $10 like you claimed, I purchased 37" tires that were like 24% cheaper than my local dealer wanted for them - that adds up to like $375

 

[JarHeadLV]

Sounds like the relationship I've built with the dealership I've been going to - where they all but cut the bill in half for me - literally knocking about 40% off the top. And the other time the service advisor spent 45 minutes with me and my truck figuring out the temp sensor only to find it was likely my snow plow causing the issue - no charge.

Hmmn - last time I checked (just NOW) - 40% isn't "half" - its 40%! If you think they are going to lose money for you, you're crazy

 

[djthumper]

This IS WHY I never go to my local dealership unless oil change, etc... that's covered. They charge ridiculous prices to do anything. And they wonder when I stop by and ask why I didnt have them do my upgrades - told them point blank, "I'm all for capitalism, but when you're clearly overcharging me and putting excessive money in your pockets it's a big no go for me."

My local Jeep offroad shop guys in Las Vegas are honest, they only charge me for what they do on my JT. I'm "there" at their shop when they are doing stuff, they never "round up" - last time I was there the job took 1.5 hrs, they charged me for 1.5 hrs. I gotta say I'm pretty happy with them.

I always discuss the work being done and cost before they (or anyone) touches anything of mine. Just easier to have everything known upfront.

Which shops are you going to in town? I have been doing some things that I would prefer not to but the timing sucks because of my work hours.

 

[Minty JL]

Honestly, without knowing their rate, I'd be more upset at the fact that the techs, likely, are only getting paid for their actual time, and the shop is charging you for the current hourly rate.

Example: one of my local dealerships charges $175/hr, and pays the techs $65/hr. If they do a 4 hour job, in 2 hours, they get $130.. and the dealership gets $700.

Even if I WANTED to give them the work, there really is no financial way I justify it, when the rate is already sky high and the techs aren't even getting a pittance of it.

I guess the upside, is that I'm learning to do a lot more stuff, myself, this way.



~ Casp

My knowledge on the topic is from having working in the automotive industry as a full time tech or as a hobbyist for over 30 years now.

See that's wrong or maybe a horrible place to work. If I'm flat rate, and the service writer has say 4 hours on the ticket and I finish in 2 hours, I still get paid for 4 hrs.

Yes, dealers and shops alike have overhead. But that overhead is covered in several various billing layers.

1) the overall labor rate. In the example above Labor rate charged is $175 - $65 for the tech leaves $110 per hour pure profit for the shop/dealer. NOTE: If the tech is making $65 per hour, he or she is more then likely not only ASE Master certified but Master certified with manufacture of the dealership GM, BMW or Toyota.
2) mark up on parts (profits both the service dept. and the parts dept - one feeds the other)
3) the Misc fees such as shop supplies, which must shops will charge 10% of the ticket; ie at $1300 ticket(parts and labor) will have an additional $130 added to the ticket. Did they use $130 in shop materials.......hell no they buy in bulk and make money there too.

For another ground truth insight @ShadowsPapa can add here as a career tech. He was probably wrenching when I was still swimming around in my dads ball sack lol........I say that respectfully with his knowledge and experience.

 

[Sandevino]

A quote / estimate is just that….

If they did the work in half the book time, I’d want assurance they didn’t cut corners.

 

[sharpsicle]

I always discuss the work being done and cost before they (or anyone) touches anything of mine. Just easier to have everything known upfront.

Just an FYI, this is the exact purpose of book rates, which is how most dealerships operate. The job books out at 4 hours, then that's going to be the charge for labor. If they get it done in fewer hours, so be it. But also, if it takes longer, still only books for 4 hours.

I think you're inadvertently making a case for the way dealerships operate.

Of course you're free to not like or agree to that kind of up-front information and go to an hourly shop. They may or may not be following the recommended procedures or using the right tools, and that all shakes out in the cost as well. And that may be totally fine, not saying it's a problem. But there are costs to everything. In the end it's up to you.

 

[JarHeadLV]

Which shops are you going to in town? I have been doing some things that I would prefer not to but the timing sucks because of my work hours.

American Offroad Customs - 2 partners, great guys
5115 Dean Martin Dr Ste 107, Las Vegas, NV 89118
(702) 478-5222

 

[JarHeadLV]

Just an FYI, this is the exact purpose of book rates, which is how most dealerships operate. The job books out at 4 hours, then that's going to be the charge for labor. If they get it done in fewer hours, so be it. But also, if it takes longer, still only books for 4 hours.

I think you're inadvertently making a case for the way dealerships operate.

Of course you're free to not like or agree to that kind of up-front information and go to an hourly shop. They may or may not be following the recommended procedures or using the right tools, and that all shakes out in the cost as well. And that may be totally fine, not saying it's a problem. But there are costs to everything. In the end it's up to you.

EXACTLY- Im talking about dealerships! I can try to control as much as I can so there's NO problem later about confusion. Just works better for me.

 

[sharpsicle]

EXACTLY- Im talking about dealerships! I can try to control as much as I can so there's NO problem later about confusion. Just works better for me.

OK I'm confused now. You said you don't like dealerships because of their unreliable pricing and wanted up-front pricing before a job started. I said that's actually how most dealerships operate through the use of "book rates". You said "exactly!"

Sounds like the book rate method these dealerships use is what you want, yes? So what's the problem?

 

[JarHeadLV]

OK I'm confused now. You said you don't like dealerships because of their unreliable pricing and wanted up-front pricing before a job started. I said that's actually how most dealerships operate through the use of "book rates". You said "exactly!"

Sounds like the book rate method these dealerships use is what you want, yes? So what's the problem?

I didn't say "unreliable" pricing, YOU did. Let's not just add in random words into the conversation. My problem is how much dealerships charge for everything. I also do NOT like the "book rate" method because I know their #1 goal is to do the work in less time, but still charge the time amount stated in some book. Maybe in a dealership that's normal, but in my business charging someone for something like that is unethical.

The price for all products I have added onto my truck - like winch, bumpers, wheel and tires, etc.... the dealer(s) have been like 20% + more expensive on everything for the same exact product I can buy cheaper elsewhere.

Also, someone mentioned a 4 hour job getting done at a dealer in less than 1 hour and still charging the client the full amount is ridiculous, either overcharging the client or cutting corners, either one is not good. THIS is why I go to my local shop who treats me right. if that doesn't makes sense, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe we can agree to not agree?

 

[Jefe1018]

Here’s how I’d answer OP’s original question.

You agreed to the amount done for the service performed, right?

Perfect, they said hey this work which should take me 6 hours took me 3, come get your truck. Awesome!

What if they called towards the end of the day and said hey, this job is actually going to take another 6 hours due to unforeseen issues. Can we charge you more? No, right?

 

[Jefe1018]

American Offroad Customs - 2 partners, great guys
5115 Dean Martin Dr Ste 107, Las Vegas, NV 89118
(702) 478-5222

I’ve gotten quotes from them, they are fantastic and super responsive. Probably my go to when I need work.

 

[JW Jeep]

Flat rate is great for a experienced tech that still takes pride in their skill and puts quality of his work first. I was a manager for many years and have seen it all. I have had techs that could beat the clock in half the time and made it look easy with high quality work but I also have had techs that would try to cut corners too make the quick buck and they didn’t last long under me. I even had techs that did great work but just could never beat the clock which I kept them and took them off flat rate with a better hourly rate And gave them the jobs that I knew would take a little extra time. Quality always has to come first !! If they quoted you 6 hours that’s what you will be charged.

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