Study: EVs cost more to fuel than ICE engines

[Rusty PW]

For every pro for EV's. Then is an opposite con for them. To me. EV's ain't ready for prime time just yet.

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[ShadowsPapa]

For every pro for EV's. Then is an opposite con for them. To me. EV's ain't ready for prime time just yet.

Depends on who and where..............

If you mean "for the masses" or "everywhere" - I'd agree.

 

[Geoarch]

Agreed but in a world in which we are "all created equal" there are some more equal than others!

@BigBry I don't know where that anger came from? If I were you, which I am clearly not and not try to make a comparison, I would turn off the TV and talk radio and get out more. Meet people outside your usual circle of friends and see how we ALL live. In S. TX we wear a lot of red neckties but in my neck of the woods we are ALL friends and we ALL live together happily without the overt anger and envy. Chill and relax! The world is so much more!

Thanks for that. We on my street in New Mexico get together for a pot luck each month - R's and D's and have a lot of fun. And we look out for each other - help with yard work, give rides when needed. Some have weapons, some don't. We vote differently, but support each other. Maybe this is rare. I hope not for everyone's sake. It's moved us all to the center which is a great place to be.

 

[WestwallNF104A]

For every pro for EV's. Then is an opposite con for them. To me. EV's ain't ready for prime time just yet.

That's true for the most part. But there are folks who can benefit from them.

A good friend of mine is retired and spends his days hitting garage sales and estate sales. His Tesla is perfect for that. He absolutely loves it.

For long drives he has a BMW M5

 

[Rocksalt]

It’s the left that’s panicked about tire pollution, not big oil, which is my point all along. Tires are made out of oil, FYI:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/16/worl...-rubber-waste-climate-hnk-spc-intl/index.html

https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...e-particle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...ire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

https://earth.org/tyre-pollution/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/tires-unseen-plastic-polluter

???

 

[Rocksalt]

Thanks for that. We on my street in New Mexico get together for a pot luck each month - R's and D's and have a lot of fun. And we look out for each other - help with yard work, give rides when needed. Some have weapons, some don't. We vote differently, but support each other. Maybe this is rare. I hope not for everyone's sake. It's moved us all to the center which is a great place to be.

too bad that is not the rest of Merika

 

[Alc]

There are several of you on here I truly respect that have very strong views on this subject. The only thing I offer after reading 10 pages of this is a book “the end of the world is just the beginning” by Peter Zeihan that talks a little bit about the EV push and how it impacts the global environment etc. it’s quite interesting since he breaks it down to the specific elements within the battery and how to get those natural resources. He is a self-proclaimed greenie so it is through that lens. He also wrote a book “the accidental superpower” which many military members have been recommended and read. After serving in a bunch of wars/conflicts and finally retiring 2yrs ago I can tell you EVs are not the solution. If you think we spent too much blood, sweat and tears on oil (which I agree)…can you imagine what we will spend on resources hard to find like lithium or cobalt??? Oil is literally everywhere but the materials to build batteries is not. Just the copper production alone to create the EV utopia is astounding and impossible.

Personally, I’m glad EVs exist because Tesla demonstrated there is a market for them…I just wish the government didn’t get involved because now that market and its viability are completely skewed.

Lastly, there was a debate about weight for vehicles. I’m a PCar owner and here’s a good apples to apples comparison Porsche Panamera 4S = 4336lbs & Porsche Taycan 4S = 4976lbs. Do with that info as you see fit in future discussions.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

There are several of you on here I truly respect that have very strong views on this subject. The only thing I offer after reading 10 pages of this is a book “the end of the world is just the beginning” by Peter Zeihan that talks a little bit about the EV push and how it impacts the global environment etc. it’s quite interesting since he breaks it down to the specific elements within the battery and how to get those natural resources. He is a self-proclaimed greenie so it is through that lens. He also wrote a book “the accidental superpower” which many military members have been recommended and read. After serving in a bunch of wars/conflicts and finally retiring 2yrs ago I can tell you EVs are not the solution. If you think we spent too much blood, sweat and tears on oil (which I agree)…can you imagine what we will spend on resources hard to find like lithium or cobalt??? Oil is literally everywhere but the materials to build batteries is not. Just the copper production alone to create the EV utopia is astounding and impossible.

Personally, I’m glad EVs exist because Tesla demonstrated there is a market for them…I just wish the government didn’t get involved because now that market and its viability are completely skewed.

Lastly, there was a debate about weight for vehicles. I’m a PCar owner and here’s a good apples to apples comparison Porsche Panamera 4S = 4336lbs & Porsche Taycan 4S = 4976lbs. Do with that info as you see fit in future discussions.

The battery thing is going to change by leaps and bounds really quickly. The research that has been driven harder (and making it more "worth it") by "government" is proving that we won't need our conventional batteries forever.
It's like so many things - we wish xxx wouldn't be involved, but if they weren't, research and innovation would crawl as there's no push or nudge. Even medicine has progressed many times faster than normal because of spending on the space program. There's a lot of things we'd not have at all, or wouldn't be as mature, if not for those pushes and nudges we all hate - but then don't realize that the things we insist we must have today would not yet exist if not for that push.
It's a double-edged sword, I guess - keep your grubby mits out of it - and hey, thanks for the technology and medicine advances we have today.

I do believe that sometimes things happen to fast and the push is too hard and that in itself generates a backlash that would not otherwise exist.
There are so many sides to this - on one hand there's the disaster out there costing our auto makers a ton of money (but then, I see how much the CEOs and others make) on the other hand - battery technology will bleed over into cell phones, laptop computers, tablets, e-bikes and other things that otherwise would be stuck in the quicksand of old Li battery tech.

So I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm in the middle looking all around me, all 360 degrees, and seeing way beyond the surface - or trying to (to avoid the heartburn and frustration that would otherwise ensue)

once solid state and other battery tech gets out there and is affordable - we'll enjoy that in things other than EVs.

Look at how your cell phone glass came into being - quite by accident at first.......the first paragraph or so suggests it all came about due to a furnace controller malfunction, which lead to other experimenting.............

https://www.wired.com/2012/09/ff-corning-gorilla-glass/

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Here's further proof that the media and certain others view SUVs as being evil, sentient beings with minds of their own - if this was a Prius or green car, the car would not be blamed, the driver would:

Watch those darned things - they have minds of their own.
When everyone starts treating vehicles as things that can't act on their own, and blaming drivers, and start considering all vehicles as equals on the road instead of SUVs being evil........... nope, it will never happen.
Even our local news TV stations do the same thing - if it's a truck or SUV - it went after the pedestrians, if it's a car, the type of car isn't even mentioned, they'll say a "driver lost control".
There's prejudice everywhere - even when it comes to "things".

On the other hand - this thing can and does act on its own, no driver needed -

 

[Alc]

The battery thing is going to change by leaps and bounds really quickly. The research that has been driven harder (and making it more "worth it") by "government" is proving that we won't need our conventional batteries forever.
It's like so many things - we wish xxx wouldn't be involved, but if they weren't, research and innovation would crawl as there's no push or nudge. Even medicine has progressed many times faster than normal because of spending on the space program. There's a lot of things we'd not have at all, or wouldn't be as mature, if not for those pushes and nudges we all hate - but then don't realize that the things we insist we must have today would not yet exist if not for that push.
It's a double-edged sword, I guess - keep your grubby mits out of it - and hey, thanks for the technology and medicine advances we have today.

I do believe that sometimes things happen to fast and the push is too hard and that in itself generates a backlash that would not otherwise exist.
There are so many sides to this - on one hand there's the disaster out there costing our auto makers a ton of money (but then, I see how much the CEOs and others make) on the other hand - battery technology will bleed over into cell phones, laptop computers, tablets, e-bikes and other things that otherwise would be stuck in the quicksand of old Li battery tech.

So I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm in the middle looking all around me, all 360 degrees, and seeing way beyond the surface - or trying to (to avoid the heartburn and frustration that would otherwise ensue)

once solid state and other battery tech gets out there and is affordable - we'll enjoy that in things other than EVs.

Look at how your cell phone glass came into being - quite by accident at first.......the first paragraph or so suggests it all came about due to a furnace controller malfunction, which lead to other experimenting.............

https://www.wired.com/2012/09/ff-corning-gorilla-glass/

I truly hope you and others get a chance to read or listen to the books I’ve mentioned above if you haven’t already, they provide a unique global perspective on so many of these issues. NASA and the DoD have definitely advanced many technologies but the free market innovation has pushed the envelope much more in the past 50 years (with the exception of space & nuclear tech)…to the winner goes the spoils I.e. Tesla.

Like I said before…I remember when we had to all hurry up and switch to plastic bags because we were killing all the trees with our paper bags at the grocery store. Or when we had to start buying bottled water because it was “cleaner” than tap water. A retrospective look shows you how wrong we were or more importantly the negative consequences on our environment. Hopefully we won’t look back the same way on this new push and only time will tell.

 

[Rocksalt]

evidently solid state technology will significantly improve battery range, storage, and lifespan

 

[ShadowsPapa]

NASA and the DoD have definitely advanced many technologies but the free market innovation has pushed the envelope much more in the past 50 years (with the exception of space & nuclear tech)…to the winner goes the spoils I.e. Tesla.

But that's due to one very quirky genius who, if he hadn't existed, we'd not have that stuff at all.
I think it's in part his being wired very differently, a quirk of nature that only happens in less than 10% of humans, and things falling into place just right, that made Tesla happen.
Face it, like him, hate him, whatever, if not for that one person, Tesla would likely not exist and China would not see a huge need to push so hard on their own EV sector.
Gates is another example of why we have some of what we do - but it's a shame not enough people knew how he got there - the "fairness" people would have a cow if they knew all the rules he broke and how much most of us hated his underhanded, bordering o illegal tactics.
So there we have a company doing much of what we complain about the feds themselves doing - but we credit him while hating others. Gates is a total ass, big jerk, and ruthless as hell. He even got away with literal theft of technology, and copied other things. But no one cares.

 

[Alc]

Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, the Wright Brothers…history is littered with quirky geniuses that have changed mankind without government involvement…heck, in spite of government involvement.

Government is most often wrong with a few successes here and there. One such success, our interstate system. But for each success are 100s of failures. Anytime the government is there to help or provide subsidies/rebates, follow the money of those in government pushing whatever “it” is.

Tesla would be a success even without government intervention. EVs have a market without being pushed by the government. Just like computers, iPhones, etc. the more usability the larger the profits for that company. Heck I’d buy an EV if they would just make a minivan EV that gets 400miles of actual range (2 adults, 5 kids and their stuff). But right now, NOTHING can touch my ‘15 MB GL350 bluetech that can go 700miles to the tank, fill up in 3 minutes, tow ~7k lbs and holds 7 while getting 26mpg. I do not see batteries being able to accomplish the same in my lifetime unless we discover a new element.

Lastly, we keep saying/hearing battery technology will change. Yes it will, but it all boils down to the periodic table and elements, more specifically electrons in elements. Lithium only has 1 extra electron which is why EVs are heavy and the longer the range the more of that element they need. What other element do we see taking its place? Cobalt? How and where do we source that element? Is it in abundance? How much copper is required to produce an electric car? Where do we source that and do we have enough? Technology will most certainly change but the element requirements do not. Sourcing some of those elements is extremely costly both monetarily and environmentally…is it sustainable and is it environmental? Isn’t that the whole reason there is a push for this technology? Or are are we destined to save the planet by raping and pillaging the planet? The most important near term question is; have we just mass produced “throw away” vehicles that have no long term value, cannot be recycled, and cannot be fixed (replace battery at a reasonable price)? That should worry us all.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, the Wright Brothers…history is littered with quirky geniuses that have changed mankind without government involvement…heck, in spite of government involvement.

Government is most often wrong with a few successes here and there. One such success, our interstate system. But for each success are 100s of failures. Anytime the government is there to help or provide subsidies/rebates, follow the money of those in government pushing whatever “it” is.

Tesla would be a success even without government intervention. EVs have a market without being pushed by the government. Just like computers, iPhones, etc. the more usability the larger the profits for that company. Heck I’d buy an EV if they would just make a minivan EV that gets 400miles of actual range (2 adults, 5 kids and their stuff). But right now, NOTHING can touch my ‘15 MB GL350 bluetech that can go 700miles to the tank, fill up in 3 minutes, tow ~7k lbs and holds 7 while getting 26mpg. I do not see batteries being able to accomplish the same in my lifetime unless we discover a new element.

Lastly, we keep saying/hearing battery technology will change. Yes it will, but it all boils down to the periodic table and elements, more specifically electrons in elements. Lithium only has 1 extra electron which is why EVs are heavy and the longer the range the more of that element they need. What other element do we see taking its place? Cobalt? How and where do we source that element? Is it in abundance? How much copper is required to produce an electric car? Where do we source that and do we have enough? Technology will most certainly change but the element requirements do not. Sourcing some of those elements is extremely costly both monetarily and environmentally…is it sustainable and is it environmental? Isn’t that the whole reason there is a push for this technology? Or are are we destined to save the planet by raping and pillaging the planet? The most important near term question is; have we just mass produced “throw away” vehicles that have no long term value, cannot be recycled, and cannot be fixed (replace battery at a reasonable price)? That should worry us all.

Yes, the element requirements will change and have already changed.
Lithium batteries are being recycled - currently - at about 99%.
It's only going to get better.
We're not talking standard 'x-ion' batteries in the future.
The Chinese have a cobalt-free battery, there's graphine, and there's sodium batteries coming.
VW hopes to use solid state batteries by about 2026.
I'd not be surprised to see some of the new tech batteries on the market by the time the batteries in our 4xe need to be replaced. It's a certainty that by that time the recycling will be so widespread and cheap - the cost of replacements will drop drastically.
At some point the amount of recycled materials will be great enough that we won't need nearly as much "newly found" materials.
Don't get stuck on lithium and cobalt - there are already practical examples of batteries using neither of these, or at least only one and not the other.

 

[Rusty PW]

evidently solid state technology will significantly improve battery range, storage, and lifespan

For every pro, there is a con.

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