The 3.6 Tick Bites Trail Recon at 31,000 Miles

[salvino]

It really can only hold oil in the filter itself - to a point. On startup, you aren't running in the high lift mode dragging the center part of the follower across the cam.
These also have oil pressure built up by the time they start - watch the oil pressure of a bone-stock 3.6 at start sometimes.

What do we say to the millions over 65,000 miles with no issues at all on the stock system?

Not that I'm "against" it, just that it's more of a solution looking for problems, IMO.
No one can prove or indicate it helps or not. Sort of like those advocating the "dry crank" - (weird name LOL - last thing you want is DRY cranking).

I can‘t say for sure it helps. But I definitely noticed quieter cold starts on after install. And I’m pretty sure it don’t hurt.

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[ShadowsPapa]

I can‘t say for sure it helps. But I definitely noticed quieter cold starts on after install. And I’m pretty sure it don’t hurt.

Can't hurt and if it makes filter changes easier.........

 

[StevieY1]

It gets even better, also re-engineering the oiling system.

Baxter Performance Oil Filter Relocation - google it...seems reasonable to me but I'm the guy who wants to supercharge my Galdiator so there's that.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Baxter Performance Oil Filter Relocation - google it...seems reasonable to me but I'm the guy who wants to supercharge my Galdiator so there's that.

No need to Google. It's an old discussion......most of us know all about it.

 

[StevieY1]

Way back before all the dinosaurs died and turned into petroleum, all we could get was Bio-Syn oil.

Well thank goodness you believe in the dinosaurs...there's one HUGE issue solved.

 

[StevieY1]

No need to Google. It's an old discussion......most of us know all about it.

So its a reasonable upgrade to the oil system then Pops? Please give us your wisdom on this one - I think I'll get it...

 

[Deleted member 67086]

I am an auto tech for a large company that has a fleet of Ram Promaster vans. Both my JL and JT have 3.0 diesels.

Okay. Is there a particular point you’re trying to communicate? You could be saying, because you’ve seen so many issues working on Pentastars, you went with the diesel engine in your personal vehicle, but I don’t want to speculate.

 

[Deleted member 67086]

I believe it's the valve lash adjustors (i.e. lifters) that collapse and fail, thus sending the rockers into the camshaft... again though, this is the internet so all answers are correct

This was my thought for a while too, but then I wondered why the failures are overwhelmingly occurring on the right side bank of the engine….? If it was a parts quality issue, I feel it would happen randomly on either bank of the engine. I am warning up to the idea it is an oil passage (not design) issue on the right cylinder head. It may be a quality issue, or maybe it’s more prone to an oil passage obstruction…? The joy of speculation!

 

[StevieY1]

This was my thought for a while too, but then I wondered why the failures are overwhelmingly occurring on the right side bank of the engine….? If it was a parts quality issue, I feel it would happen randomly on either bank of the engine. I am warning up to the idea it is an oil passage (not design) issue on the right cylinder head. It may be a quality issue, or maybe it’s more prone to an oil passage obstruction…? The joy of speculation!

Interesting - right side huh? Well, if you check out the baxter performance video online, the makers of the part say that after startup the right side (passenger) doesn't get oil for 3.5 seconds...just trying to help - pls don't barbecue me

 

[Deleted member 67086]

Interesting - right side huh? Well, if you check out the baxter performance video online, the makers of the part say that after startup the right side (passenger) doesn't get oil for 3.5 seconds...just trying to help - pls don't barbecue me

Ha! Not gonna BBQ you, but will question Baxter’s claim that it takes 3.5 seconds for the right side of the engine to get oil. I question that because the oil pressure gauge shows pressure before 3.5 seconds. If there was no oil getting to the right bank, it would not build pressure until it did.

if people wanna buy the Baxter device, by all means go for it. My personal feeling is the oil that the Baxter device traps in their oil filter area, is not going to start flowing until it builds enough pressure to open the valve that keeps that oil in the Baxter device, so any difference would be minuscule.

I also think back to a previous Toyota vehicle I owned that had a similar element style oil filter, like my Jeep, except that the Toyota filter was located down near the bottom of the engine. There was literally nothing to prevent all the oil in the valve train from draining back down to the oil pan on that engine, which is the case with a lot of engines that do not experience “dry start” issues.

Like I say, I don’t have a personal issue with the Baxter device, I’m just not sure it does any good, other than possibly voiding your warranty.

 

[JTGuy]

I am glad the cam thing happened to him. He will get some attention . We sure don't . There is really no reason for this to be happening . Parts are wearing due to a bad design. Even when the fix is done it will happen again. If I would have known about all the issues that have not been fixed I would have never bought one. IMO, Brad should have just left on his Alaska trip with the tick and just let the world know of this problem.

 

[Billabong]

Mine made it 73k miles before the tick started happening. For this to be such a problem, literally for almost everyone. I'm surprised, there hasn't been a recall. I know it would probably bankrupt Jeep, but damn.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Mine made it 73k miles before the tick started happening. For this to be such a problem, literally for almost everyone. I'm surprised, there hasn't been a recall. I know it would probably bankrupt Jeep, but damn.

Recall for what? A tiny fraction of a percentage of the millions of these engines?
What's the actual solution? Is there ONE solution?
There has to be an issue with a larger number, and a known cause, a root cause.

Parts are wearing due to a bad design.

Is it?

Not gonna BBQ you, but will question Baxter’s claim that it takes 3.5 seconds for the right side of the engine to get oil. I question that because the oil pressure gauge shows pressure before 3.5 seconds. If there was no oil getting to the right bank, it would not build pressure until it did.

Baxter is of course selling product.
I see oil pressure WAY before 3.5 seconds. Also, the display in the cluster is always lagging a bit behind reality - I found this with voltage and other measurements. If it shows xx number, that actually happened almost a second before it was displayed. It's not quite "real time" in displaying numbers.

The right side is also a tad closer in the hydraulic schematic. Oil should be there first. That's also the side the mains and rods get oil from if I recall correctly.
These start up in high pressure, high volume mode. Again, it's an oil pump that would blow most others away in the capacity to move a volume of oil fast.

I can't even count the numbers of engines I've primed oil pumps on after a rebuild and it happened pretty quickly - that's filling a 1 quart filter using a small gear pump driven at half the speed of the crankshaft.

So its a reasonable upgrade to the oil system then Pops? Please give us your wisdom on this one - I think I'll get it...

It can't hurt anything - if it makes it easier to change the filter, that's the only good I see out of it. Otherwise, the so called "dry starts" just aren't problematic.
The stock filter housing is TINY, the pump is BIG.
Just because the filter drains down doesn't mean everything else is totally empty. (odd, because the thing is supposed to hold oil until the cap is released, allowing a valve to open, draining oil down for a cleaner filter change)
And the fact is - OTHER engines drain oil back as well - just not the filter. Many use larger filters. But the anti-drainback is for the FILTER, not for the rest of the system. The oil galleries will not be impacted by the Baxter device. ONLY that tiny 1-2 cup filter housing.


Other thoughts- when you start the engine, it's not running 2,000 RPM. There's not a heavy load on it. The oil is often cooler, and thicker. You aren't loading up the high-lift follower part or the high lift lobe. So, I can't see it being a "dry start" issue at all, just don't see it.

 

[StevieY1]

Ha! Not gonna BBQ you, but will question Baxter’s claim that it takes 3.5 seconds for the right side of the engine to get oil. I question that because the oil pressure gauge shows pressure before 3.5 seconds. If there was no oil getting to the right bank, it would not build pressure until it did.

if people wanna buy the Baxter device, by all means go for it. My personal feeling is the oil that the Baxter device traps in their oil filter area, is not going to start flowing until it builds enough pressure to open the valve that keeps that oil in the Baxter device, so any difference would be minuscule.

I also think back to a previous Toyota vehicle I owned that had a similar element style oil filter, like my Jeep, except that the Toyota filter was located down near the bottom of the engine. There was literally nothing to prevent all the oil in the valve train from draining back down to the oil pan on that engine, which is the case with a lot of engines that do not experience “dry start” issues.

Like I say, I don’t have a personal issue with the Baxter device, I’m just not sure it does any good, other than possibly voiding your warranty.

They did have an explanation for the pressure gauge and they also pointed out that the oil temp is monitored at a point that does not give an accurate oil temp as well. The explanation on the video seemed completely plausible to me

 

[ShadowsPapa]

they also pointed out that the oil temp is monitored at a point that does not give an accurate oil temp as well.

Which Pentastar 3.6 did they say that about? Yes, it matters.
It was moved in the PUG to give a more accurate reading.

but will question Baxter’s claim that it takes 3.5 seconds for the right side of the engine to get oil. I question that because the oil pressure gauge shows pressure before 3.5 seconds. If there was no oil getting to the right bank, it would not build pressure until it did.

The pressure sensor is up high as well - so......... it's not right by the pump like with some engine designs. That means it's only going to show pressure when the system is pressurized.

I still believe this isn't as huge as the magnifying glass of the internet makes it appear. Over 20 million 3.6 and we can figure half of those are the PUG.
So 10 million (an estimate, I don't believe there are any real hard numbers for sure other than 6 million have come out of the Mexico plant alone as of 2023)
I'd bet we're not even up to 1% failure rate, and of those - can we say it was all the SAME root cause?
Techs say that the real numbers hit not right away but closer to 2020, and it appears the numbers are dwindling compared to what we saw reported in 2020/2021 where they were failing even as low as a few thousand miles.

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