The 3.6 Tick Bites Trail Recon at 31,000 Miles

[OldButStillJeeping]

Jeep need to suck it up and reach out to Honda's engineers on how to build a variable valve timing top end.

Much of Jeep, Dodge, Ram, and Chrysler's technology today came from Daimler / Mercedes. From back in the day. My Jeep TJ was made by Daimler / Chrysler.

My 2017 392 Challenger Scat Pack has a Daimler designed suspension and drivetrain. And a ZF designed transmission (German) like in my 2021 Jeep JTM. My Challenger rolls Zero to 60 in 4.2 and a top speed of 182.... in an American Muscle car. Networking is good.

Honda and Toyota's input would not be bad. Networking is good.

Sponsored

 

[DanW]

Jeep need to suck it up and reach out to Honda's engineers on how to build a variable valve timing top end.

I don´t think so.

Honda doesn´t make a current production V6 with a lower warranty claim cost (I believe calculated per 100,000 engines) than the Pentastar. Inside the industry, it is known that the Pentastar is the #1 V6 sold in America for lowest warranty repair claim rate. That´s 100% why this engine is still in production after so many years and even though they tried to kill it, it just won´t go away. It is too good for the bottom line. It´s reliability and durability are why they did not fit it with direct injection, even though it was designed with that in mind, originally. And Honda is probably running 0w16 or maybe even 0w8 in theirs now, so if 0w20 worries you, that might give you a full-on anxiety attack.

Guys, with 14,000,000 of these on the road, every mechanic in the country will have seen a broken rocker or some other issue, multiple times. That´s why some of them think it has a design flaw. It doesn´t. It is like any man made thing. It has a percentage of failures. It can be caused by a bad batch of parts, valve springs, whatever, etc. But these engines are all around you, everywhere, in everything from mini vans to suv´s to cop cars to pickup trucks, to commercial vans. EVERYTHING. They are NOT dropping like flies. The rep of this engine in the industry is stellar. Are there some common issues. Sure. But as it has matured, many of those have been corrected. But some that we think are common issues are not as common as we think if you do the real math.

So here are some more thoughts....as everyone has a formula for preventing a failure that is not caused by what they think....

It isn´t oil or high temps that causes the rocker failure or any other issue. Otherwise all of them would have the problem. Literally millions of them.

Some think 5w30 or thicker is specified in Europe or other places. It is not. The PUG version was developed on 0w20 and they specify 0w20 all over the world. Even in Saudi Arabia. The Gen 1 did specify 5w30 in Europe and possibly the Middle East and Australia, but that is because customers there would be very, very skeptical of 0w20. But today, that is the oil specified, even in the hottest of places.

If it makes you feel better, running 5w30 won´t hurt it. But also know the valve train on these things is complicated and that´s where the original Pentastar engineer said to be careful going too thick. It relies on oil splashing all over the place to lubricate everything in those spinning cams. I personally don´t think 0w40 would hurt it, especially if it is on the thin end of 40 weight.

Also running 20-30 degrees cooler with a lower temp thermostat or high speed fan will cost you some fuel efficiency and will cause your oil to be even thicker than at the standard temperature. Oil thins as the temp goes up. So a 40 weight at 200 degrees will pump at its specified viscosity. But at 170 degrees, it will pump more like a 50 weight. Running too cool might also cause more fuel dilution in the oil, which will thin it and also reduce its lubricity, one of the big reasons DI engines are hard on oil.

A magnetic drain plug is a great idea. I have them on both my Jeeps and my Vette. There is no downside to them. I´m not sure how much good they really do, but there is no way they can hurt. Maybe they just ease the load on the oil filter, but who knows? Getting any iron out of the oil is a good thing. Period.

Here are things you can do to increase the longevity of your 3.6, or any engine, but probably won´t have any impact on a rocker failure, because it has nothing to do with oil.

1. Shut off the start/stop. A Tazer or programmer is the easiest way, but if you must, just hit the button every time you start it.

2. Don´t sit and idle to warm it up. Minimize idling. Warm it up by driving it immediately after start-up, but gently.

3. Avoid short trips. This is where the oil doesn´t get up to full temp, or doesn´t stay there long enough. If you run at least 20-25 minutes, the oil gets to full temp and burns off unburned fuel and water in the oil and maybe some other minor contaminates. If you short trip, expect more fuel in the oil and quicker degredation of viscosity and sooner oxidation. If you can´t help but do short trips, take a longer one whenever you can, and/or change the oil sooner, such as 4,000 or even 3,000 miles.

4. Use a good filter. The Mopar filter is fine, but the minumum efficiency you should use (99% removal of particles 30 microns and smaller in one pass). There are other filters, such as Fram Ultra, Fram Tough Guard, or Carquest´s top filer that do 99% or better at 20 microns in 1 pass.

5. Use a good oil. PLENTY of options.

6. NEVER run E85, even if you have a flex fuel vehicle. (Gladiators were never rated for this.) Ethanol strips oil from cylinder walls. It is a big no-no.

7. Change your air filter every 25 to 30k unless you get into a lot of dust. Then change it ASAP. (I change mine after any off-road trip, such as Moab, where I´m in heavy dust.)

8. Do NOT use a K&N or cloth air filter if you go off-road. They are significantly less efficient than paper filters. They cannot hold a fraction as much dirt/dust. I would never run one, but if you must, then do it on-road only and check/clean it appropriately.

9. Run the Pentastar hard. High rpm splashes fresh oil into the vavle stems. That is a good thing.

10. Run Top Tier certified fuel. Shell, Chevron, Exxon, Phillips....those are probably the best, but any Top Tier rated fuel will keep your engine cleaner and there are studies (AAA, for one) that indicate less wear with these fuels. They do not have to be high octane, either. Top Tier 87 octane is just fine, or 85 if you are at high altitude.

Finally, understand that an engine is a man made thing. Even the very best of them have a percentage of failures.

And....a buddy who does not take care of his engine like outlined has a 2014 gen 1 Pentastar. He has run whatever bulk full synthetic 5w20 and cheap filter his local quickie-lube uses, and typically goes 7500 to 8500 miles on an oil change. He didn´t change spark plugs until waaaaaay past 100,000 miles. (IIRC, maybe 160k or so.) He just turned over 260,000 miles on his engine with no major issues. It runs like new.

Some of it just involved the odds and blind luck. I wish all of you great luck with your engines!

 

[Jteakus]

I am an auto tech for a large company that has a fleet of Ram Promaster vans. Both my JL and JT have 3.0 diesels.

 

[DanW]

Much of Jeep, Dodge, Ram, and Chrysler's technology today came from Daimler / Mercedes. From back in the day. My Jeep TJ was made by Daimler / Chrysler.

My 2017 392 Challenger Scat Pack has a Daimler designed suspension and drivetrain. And a ZF designed transmission (German) like in my 2021 Jeep JTM. My Challenger rolls Zero to 60 in 4.2 and a top speed of 182.... in an American Muscle car. Networking is good.

Honda and Toyota's input would not be bad. Networking is good.

Nope. Not the Pentastar. It was an American design team that created that engine at the Chrysler design studio. I´m not aware of any Diamler resources they used, but there certainly could have been something. Funny, though...Maserati had a V6 that was based on the Pentastar. It was the F160 and was phased out in late 2023.

 

[Viper]

If it was just the rockers, I would expect it to favor both left and right banks, somewhat equally, but overwhelmingly by large margins it is the passenger right bank that has just about all the problems.

Yes it is my right intake cam. Other parts seem to be available but overwhelming the production of the right side.

 

[willys 41]

PENTASTAR CARNAGE! Popped Dodge Charger 3.6 V6 Teardown. Maserati Comparison BONUS!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Some of the wear parts have a coating....and I don´t think it is Teflon, to limit wear with the start/stop system. It was added to the PUG Pentastar that came in the newer Grand Cherokee in either 2017 or 2018 and then the JL and then the Gladiator and is now the only version of the engine.

2015 for the 2016 model year. I have the training doc on it. No coating on the followers (rockers).
Bearings, yes. Piston skirt, those are coated. No teflon, though.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

If it makes you feel better, running 5w30 won´t hurt it. But also know the valve train on these things is complicated and that´s where the original Pentastar engineer said to be careful going too thick. It relies on oil splashing all over the place to lubricate everything in those spinning cams. I personally don´t think 0w40 would hurt it, especially if it is on the thin end of 40 weight.

Also running 20-30 degrees cooler with a lower temp thermostat or high speed fan will cost you some fuel efficiency and will cause your oil to be even thicker than at the standard temperature. Oil thins as the temp goes up. So a 40 weight at 200 degrees will pump at its specified viscosity. But at 170 degrees, it will pump more like a 50 weight. Running too cool might also cause more fuel dilution in the oil, which will thin it and also reduce its lubricity, one of the big reasons DI engines are hard on oil.

I picked this bits of your post - because you really hit some areas I keep trying to get across to the less-experienced with engines and oils.

Short runs KILL ENGINES.
Running them COOLER KILLS ENGINES.
These are designed for that HEAT range and that heat rejection in mind. Believing that YOU know better and gee, 220 is just too hot I don't want to see anything over 200 - that's bull shit. Period. I've worked on too many dozens of engines KILLED, destroyed, when people put in electric fans, colder stats and did whatever they could to make their classic car, or even later vehicles, run COOLER.
Cooler is NOT good. Get past this bit about needing to kick the fans in sooner or at a higher speed or needing to keep that engine under 220. No, you don't. You are doing it no favors long-term.
These need to be up to 190+ for a period of time to "cook out" the fuel contaminations and destroy acids and so on.
Too hot is bad, but today's oils will handle a whole lot more than the oils of even the 1990s.

Idling doesn't really warm anything other than the coolant - you do need to drive it. Start it, if it's really cold, wait a few seconds to ensure full oiling, then drive it.

6. NEVER run E85, even if you have a flex fuel vehicle. (Gladiators were never rated for this.) Ethanol strips oil from cylinder walls. It is a big no-no.

The issue there is - more fuel contamination. If you run higher ethanol percentages, you need to cut the oil change down. I run u88 (E15) so tend to not go below 20% on oil life, unless I'm running only 10%.
I ran E85 in my Silverado whenever my spreadsheet said it saved me money - no issue, but then oil changes were kept up. You do get more fuel contamination with it.

I tend to let my 3.6s wind up. Of course, some of that is - it's a MUST just to get onto the highway, make it up to speed up that 2 mile hill against the wind and so on. I never try to keep RPM down. I don't abuse it, but if it needs the RPM, I let it go.

Every time a cam fails, or someone finds yet another Youtube video, or whatever, it's here we all go again.........

that failed 3.6 has been around here over and over and over - and really has zip to do with anything, but like the others, people like to pull them in and choose bits and parts that support their own thinking, right or wrong.

 

[OldButStillJeeping]

PENTASTAR CARNAGE! Popped Dodge Charger 3.6 V6 Teardown. Maserati Comparison BONUS!

A 12 year old Pentastar 3.6 with unknown mileage! Video was from a year ago and he says it is from a 2012 Charger. So, It blew a rod and punched a hole in the block and all heel broke loose. (maybe it had 450,000 miles on it)?

It is a fun video and I like the guy and the video. He reminds of a comedian whose name I can't place.

With millions of these on the road. And maybe 2,000 or more of these on the road in the Maserati modified 3.0 form. With private documented thousands of these Pentastars going 300,000 miles AND more.

Is this all we have got in failure vidos? I can find a straight 6's from the 40's and 50's that have done less.



I should work for Stellantis. LOL. I don't, BTW.

Be well. Jeep on.

Eric

 

[ShadowsPapa]

A 12 year old Pentastar 3.6 with unknown mileage! Video was from a year ago and he says it is from a 2012 Charger. So, It blew a rod and punched a hole in the block and all heel broke loose. (maybe it had 450,000 miles on it)?

It is a fun video and I like the guy and the video. He reminds of a comedian whose name I can't place.

With millions of these on the road. And maybe 2,000 or more of these on the road in the Maserati modified 3.0 form. With undocumented thousands of these Pentastars going 300,000 miles AND more.

Is this all we have got in failure vidos? I can find a straight 6's from the 40's and 50's that have done less.

I am still learning. Everyday. Teach and convince me why the Pent 3.6 is a bad engine. With millions on road today.

Teach me why the Pentastar 3.6 V6 is a POS. I am not convinced that it is a bad engine. I am not convinced that this ticking cam or rocker is an issue.

I should work for Stellantis. LOL. I don't, BTW.

Be well. Jeep on.

Eric

That one has made its rounds here ....... really little to do with anything much other than the guy is a real fun character and I enjoy watching him.

And frankly, I'm with you - not convinced, but then, you know the internet and forums.

 

[salvino]

From their description of the problem and what causes it - it makes it sound inevitable. It's not a matter of "if" but "when" the teflon coating wears off that rocker arm. And when that happens - it's just a few hundred miles later you throw a CIL.

Yet, I also hear about people with over 100K on their engines without this problem.

So, what are your thoughts? Is this the inevitable end to every Gladiator motor? Are we all driving ticking time bombs? (pun intended)

I installed the Baxter Performance oil filter adapter on mine a while ago. It keeps oil in the top end unlike the stock filter that drains everything into the pan when the engines is off. This eliminates the couple seconds with no oil on the rockers on start up. About 65,000 miles on it now and so far so good.

 

[willys 41]

I picked this bits of your post - because you really hit some areas I keep trying to get across to the less-experienced with engines and oils.

Short runs KILL ENGINES.
Running them COOLER KILLS ENGINES.
These are designed for that HEAT range and that heat rejection in mind. Believing that YOU know better and gee, 220 is just too hot I don't want to see anything over 200 - that's bull shit. Period. I've worked on too many dozens of engines KILLED, destroyed, when people put in electric fans, colder stats and did whatever they could to make their classic car, or even later vehicles, run COOLER.
Cooler is NOT good. Get past this bit about needing to kick the fans in sooner or at a higher speed or needing to keep that engine under 220. No, you don't. You are doing it no favors long-term.
These need to be up to 190+ for a period of time to "cook out" the fuel contaminations and destroy acids and so on.
Too hot is bad, but today's oils will handle a whole lot more than the oils of even the 1990s.

Idling doesn't really warm anything other than the coolant - you do need to drive it. Start it, if it's really cold, wait a few seconds to ensure full oiling, then drive it.



The issue there is - more fuel contamination. If you run higher ethanol percentages, you need to cut the oil change down. I run u88 (E15) so tend to not go below 20% on oil life, unless I'm running only 10%.
I ran E85 in my Silverado whenever my spreadsheet said it saved me money - no issue, but then oil changes were kept up. You do get more fuel contamination with it.

I tend to let my 3.6s wind up. Of course, some of that is - it's a MUST just to get onto the highway, make it up to speed up that 2 mile hill against the wind and so on. I never try to keep RPM down. I don't abuse it, but if it needs the RPM, I let it go.

Every time a cam fails, or someone finds yet another Youtube video, or whatever, it's here we all go again.........

that failed 3.6 has been around here over and over and over - and really has zip to do with anything, but like the others, people like to pull them in and choose bits and parts that support their own thinking, right or wrong.

Than I guess my tundra and f250 6.2 are doomed to fail.
My Tundra with 370k miles ran at a constant 190 to 200 degrees .
My 2020 f250 also runs at 190 to 200 degrees and only hit 212 when pulling my 9000lb jeep and trailer up a long uphill grade a 7000ft. elevation.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Than I guess my tundra and f250 6.2 are doomed to fail.
My Tundra with 370k miles ran at a constant 190 to 200 decrease.
My 2020 f250 also runs at 190 to 200 degrees and only hit 212 when pulling my 9000lb jeep and trailer up a long uphill grade a 7000ft. elevation.

Apples and oranges again - different engines designed with different heat rejection needs, differently engineered, pulling different load and so on.
Why bother comparing very different engines.

 

[willys 41]

Apples and oranges again - different engines designed with different heat rejection needs, differently engineered, pulling different load and so on.
Why bother comparing very different engines.

Because I am not aware of any manufacturer that run there engines as hot as 235 to 240 degrees.
The jeep fan only come on at 15% fan speed at 221 and 75% fan speed at 231.
To little to late.
Just ask the jeep owners with trailers and or heavy rigs about limp mode.

 

[OldButStillJeeping]

I installed the Baxter Performance oil filter adapter on mine a while ago. It keeps oil in the top end unlike the stock filter that drains everything into the pan when the engines is off. This eliminates the couple seconds with no oil on the rockers on start up. About 65,000 miles on it now and so far so good.

Kuddos. You may be right. You might be onto something. Sell me on it.

But I smell a something for nothing. Vehicles have run wthout oil filter pre-fill or adapters for a Century. 100 years and more.

But, I have never had oil filter pre-fill issues. Pre-fill the filter or otherwise: In my 40 years of oil changes and engine repairs done by me or my mechanic friends. Or even the delaership.... Oil filter pre-fill was NEVER an issue.

You can sell it to some. If the engine has been sitting for a year and hasn't been run. Then I agree. It can't be bad. But it doesn't flow until the engine turns. Old oil recirculates.

Sell me on why I am wrong.

Be well. Jeep on.

Eric

Sponsored