Study: EVs cost more to fuel than ICE engines

[johnchabin]

Now you're going from Jeep 3.6 to a Tesla Plaid motor.....a 100k balls to the wall performance banshee. Is that the correct comparison? Compare to the RWD Model Y. You compared a Mustang to a Mach E as if they were similar class of vehicle and said the Mach E was 1200 lbs heavier. How was *I* comparing different structures? I made the comparison one between the same type - crossover versus crossover.

This is literally all FUD from the oil lobby.

Are you suggesting Atlantic Magazine is in bed with the oil lobby?

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[ecidiego]

How about the F-150 Lightning coming in at 6500 Lbs coming a whopping 35% heaver than the ICE F-150?

Good comparison. Also a good callout of the worst EV ever made to be honest. I doubt Ford figures it out.

 

[ecidiego]

Are you suggesting Atlantic Magazine is in bed with the oil lobby?

The writer. He hates the Hummer and is laser focused on it, ignoring all other EVs.

 

[johnchabin]

You are stopping a lot more mass, but - the regenerative braking does the work until you get down to single digit speeds, then the brake pads are used. At least on the 4xe. It's REALLY COOL! I love watching that power needly drop into the recharge range. Look, ma - no brakes needed!

I figure one might get 150,000 out of the brakes on a 4xe. Especially in max regen where it drags you back just by letting up on the throttle - the throttle applies the brakes, single pedal driving.
It's really cool.
While I agree there's more mass to stop and if there was no regenerative braking, you'd kill brakes in short order - they've really left that regen part out and it totally matters. The generators can dang near stop our heavy JLU, with the brakes being applied only when coming to an absolute complete stop.

I don't know about the brakes on a pure EV - but on a 4xe - I figure we will never ever need brake pads. (we're old enough, they'll outlive us!)
Where do they get that you'll burn through brake pads faster? No way. Then with modern brake materials - ceramics and such - it's not really harmful what little brake material is put out there.

I never once mentioned brake material.

 

[ecidiego]

I never once mentioned brake material.

David Zipper does, and doing so discredits him.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I made the comparison one between the same type - crossover versus crossover.

Two different companies, different platform structures.
There isn't really a good comparison because to add electric, you must change the whole underlying structure, supports, shielding and more. The net result is added weight - at least today.
Tesla is changing that - and other companies are taking note - including Toyota (ripping apart Teslas to "see how they did that".
I think once the auto makers catch up with the true experts and drop this 100 year old "this is how we design and build cars" it will eventually be closer to a wash.
Even today, GM, Ford and others are stuck in the last century. Even lowly little AMC was blowing them away with mpg numbers, light weight, and cheaper manufacturing in how they designed and built cars (I know - there were "issues" as well) - GM and Ford - stuck to the early 1900s.

Hey, I'm cool with PHEVs and such - but there are facts out there to consider - and weight is among them.

 

[ecidiego]

Two different companies, different platform structures.
There isn't really a good comparison because to add electric, you must change the whole underlying structure, supports, shielding and more. The net result is added weight - at least today.
Tesla is changing that - and other companies are taking note - including Toyota (ripping apart Teslas to "see how they did that".
I think once the auto makers catch up with the true experts and drop this 100 year old "this is how we design and build cars" it will eventually be closer to a wash.
Even today, GM, Ford and others are stuck in the last century. Even lowly little AMC was blowing them away with mpg numbers, light weight, and cheaper manufacturing in how they designed and built cars (I know - there were "issues" as well) - GM and Ford - stuck to the early 1900s.

Hey, I'm cool with PHEVs and such - but there are facts out there to consider - and weight is among them.

Agreed.

I think the "Big 3" are goners within the next 20 years. Refusal to adapt. Both in engineering and their idiotic, worthless "dealer franchise" sales model.

Buy a Tesla, or watch your friend buy one - just once - and you'll wonder how you can ever walk into a "car dealer" ever again. Most perfect purchasing process ever. Absolutely 0 bullshit whatsoever. Entire sale is conducted via your freaking mobile phone on the Tesla app, you go pickup the car and leave or they'll drive it to you if you want. They took what Saturn tried to do 30 years ago and actually made it work.

 

[texanjeeper]

False. We are saving $6,000/year as all charging is done at home on a paid for solar array. Insurance is about the same as my Mojave. A Model Y RWD is 36k brand new. The $7500 is taken at point of sale as of now. I couldn't care less about image or 'green' anything.

The fact is the Model Y saves us a shitload of money given our driving habits. Numbers crunched.

All you did is make a bunch of assumptions based on your personal opinion and not actual experience.

Dude, you can brag about your solar array all day long, truth is, you're in Kalifornia, and it COULDN'T be more expensive if you tried. People with real world experience, where it gets cold in the winter and hot in the summer, won't have your kind of experience, not even close. Don't try to push your feel-good experience off on others, it just doesn't work....if owning that kind of crap makes you feel good, then good for you.

 

[ecidiego]

Dude, you can brag about your solar array all day long, truth is, you're in Kalifornia, and it COULDN'T be more expensive if you tried. People with real world experience, where it gets cold in the winter and hot in the summer, won't have your kind of experience, not even close. Don't try to push your feel-good experience off on others, it just doesn't work....if owning that kind of crap makes you feel good, then good for you.

oh ffs, go back under your bridge, troll.

PLONK

 

[ecidiego]

8 oil trolls added to my ignore list from this thread alone, makes the forum a lot less toxic. Now I can inhale more "EV tire dust".

It's always the one side who get angry in these discussions, lol. " Im GoNNa spELl CaLifoRnIa wiTH a K ".

rofl

 

[Minty JL]

Anyone with a lick of common sense knew this.

The average consumer only thinks of the carbon foot print from the time they take ownership; totally dismissing the production process.

 

[Rusty PW]

Add some fuel to the fire.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Anyone with a lick of common sense knew this.

The average consumer only thinks of the carbon foot print from the time they take ownership; totally dismissing the production process.

To be totally "fair" - one must consider ground to highway back to ground life-time.
That means from the earth, to manufacturing to driving to disposal, back to the earth.
A dizzying prospect.

I didn't consider the carbon footprint as much as some might. It was more like "will it work for US and our situations".
If not, none of the rest mattered.

 

[bucolic]

I don't assume anything about car buyers of any type.....people sure LOVE to assume ignorant shit about EV buyers....

Yeah, I don't get the hate for EV buyers myself. I also don't understand the EV people who hate on gas either.

I was probably one of the earlier EV buyers on this forum. I bought a 2012 Chevy Volt and it was an interesting "experiment". I had a 32-mile commute one way to work and could get a full charge at work with no cost (due to the kindness of my employer) and I did manage to drive for 90 days one summer using no gas until the engine ran for maintenance. (if you're not familiar with a Chevy Volt look them up).

To get 32 miles of range out of the Volt I had to drive 50-55 MPH on the highway, no air conditioner, no heat, and very very gentle acceleration. I would make it to work with a few miles of range left. Once the temperature dropped below about 55 degrees I couldn't make it no matter how easy I drove due to the temperature affecting the range.

Now I am in upstate NY so once winter came all bets were off. If it was in the teens I was lucky to make it 15 miles on battery without running heat or any accessories.

I bought the Volt used 2-years-old with less than 30,000 miles on it for just under 15K. Brand new these were over 42K in 2012. No one mentions what that $7500 tax credit does to resale. It destroys it.

I also think the tax credit should be factored into the cost of running the vehicle in my opinion. All of us are contributing to the tax credits and to not include the full cost of the vehicle is a bit misleading. Yes, as a purchaser WE are getting the initial savings but that $7500 is paid for by someone. I think someone on here said that a 35K solar array cost them $6500 after credits. COST THEM is the key phrase. The array still cost 35K. It just didn't cost them 35K. I don't think we can be accurate if we only include the cost to us and not the actual cost. Someone is paying that.


Now I think you are in San Diego according to your profile and that is the perfect sweet spot for temperatures for an EV. Hardly above 80 and seldom below 60. Really a nice climate and that is a dream for us in the Northeast.

Weather in many parts of the country just destroys an EV's range for 25% of the year. Range and charging infrastructure is what causes me to hold back. I need to be able to drive for 400 miles minimum before needing to stop for a charge. And I need to be able to drive exactly as I do now with the air conditioner blasting or the heat cooking me. I travel a lot and a 5-hour drive might be upped by 2 hours stopping to charge in an EV. My neighbor had a full electric VW and in the summer they could make the 310-mile trip to their children's house on a charge but in the winter they could only go about 180 miles before needing to charge. It is just the realism of living in a cold climate with an EV.

I am not anti-EV at all but I would say they are still in the experimental stages. I drove a Tesla Plaid and it was unreal! I loved my little Chevy Volt and if I only had to drive 10 miles to work it would be pretty awesome. I want both a gasser and an EV! I ride an e-bike (another thing people like to hate on!) and it is pretty cool!

I am signed up to be in line for the Dodge Ram REV which supposedly will have a 500-mile range (probably about 300-350 in the winter) and an onboard backup gas engine (like the Volt had) for backup. That will get me in the game until battery tech has improved and infrastructure is more in place. Oh, and I need to charge to full in 15 minutes

There is just such a diverse collection of driving styles, needs, wants, and habits that to just assume an EV will work for everyone is a bit short-sighted. I think it will probably get there but it might be 5-10 years away on tech.

Seems like it is taking forever when you consider that in 1900 28% of all cars on the road were electric! So Elon...you're late to the game

 

[ecidiego]

Yeah, I don't get the hate for EV buyers myself. I also don't understand the EV people who hate on gas either.

I was probably one of the earlier EV buyers on this forum. I bought a 2012 Chevy Volt and it was an interesting "experiment". I had a 32-mile commute one way to work and could get a full charge at work with no cost (due to the kindness of my employer) and I did manage to drive for 90 days one summer using no gas until the engine ran for maintenance. (if you're not familiar with a Chevy Volt look them up).

To get 32 miles of range out of the Volt I had to drive 50-55 MPH on the highway, no air conditioner, no heat, and very very gentle acceleration. I would make it to work with a few miles of range left. Once the temperature dropped below about 55 degrees I couldn't make it no matter how easy I drove due to the temperature affecting the range.

Now I am in upstate NY so once winter came all bets were off. If it was in the teens I was lucky to make it 15 miles on battery without running heat or any accessories.

I bought the Volt used 2-years-old with less than 30,000 miles on it for just under 15K. Brand new these were over 42K in 2012. No one mentions what that $7500 tax credit does to resale. It destroys it.

I also think the tax credit should be factored into the cost of running the vehicle in my opinion. All of us are contributing to the tax credits and to not include the full cost of the vehicle is a bit misleading. Yes, as a purchaser WE are getting the initial savings but that $7500 is paid for by someone. I think someone on here said that a 35K solar array cost them $6500 after credits. COST THEM is the key phrase. The array still cost 35K. It just didn't cost them 35K. I don't think we can be accurate if we only include the cost to us and not the actual cost. Someone is paying that.


Now I think you are in San Diego according to your profile and that is the perfect sweet spot for temperatures for an EV. Hardly above 80 and seldom below 60. Really a nice climate and that is a dream for us in the Northeast.

Weather in many parts of the country just destroys an EV's range for 25% of the year. Range and charging infrastructure is what causes me to hold back. I need to be able to drive for 400 miles minimum before needing to stop for a charge. And I need to be able to drive exactly as I do now with the air conditioner blasting or the heat cooking me. I travel a lot and a 5-hour drive might be upped by 2 hours stopping to charge in an EV. My neighbor had a full electric VW and in the summer they could make the 310-mile trip to their children's house on a charge but in the winter they could only go about 180 miles before needing to charge. It is just the realism of living in a cold climate with an EV.

I am not anti-EV at all but I would say they are still in the experimental stages. I drove a Tesla Plaid and it was unreal! I loved my little Chevy Volt and if I only had to drive 10 miles to work it would be pretty awesome. I want both a gasser and an EV! I ride an e-bike (another thing people like to hate on!) and it is pretty cool!

I am signed up to be in line for the Dodge Ram REV which supposedly will have a 500-mile range (probably about 300-350 in the winter) and an onboard backup gas engine (like the Volt had) for backup. That will get me in the game until battery tech has improved and infrastructure is more in place. Oh, and I need to charge to full in 15 minutes

There is just such a diverse collection of driving styles, needs, wants, and habits that to just assume an EV will work for everyone is a bit short-sighted. I think it will probably get there but it might be 5-10 years away on tech.

Seems like it is taking forever when you consider that in 1900 28% of all cars on the road were electric! So Elon...you're late to the game

Solid post! No FUD, no California hatred, no politics. Refreshing for here!

I'm 20 miles east of San Diego, we regularly get 110° summers. I wish I could afford to live on the other side of the mountain haha. February lows are about 32F for a few days.....then 40F average for a month. This is the way it is in East County San Diego. We pay the San Diego sunshine tax ( 1 million dollar starter homes ) but get none of the climate.

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