Study: EVs cost more to fuel than ICE engines

[ShadowsPapa]

How much of the savings on the EV's is in avoiding the gas tax or has CA closed that loophole? Eventually the states will start sending bills to EV owners for miles driven to reclaim the lost gas tax revenue. I take it CA has some pretty high gas taxes that if factored in would reduce the savings a bit.

It was likely mentioned a ways back - or at least in other threads - the loss of highway/bridge/road revenues is typically offset by higher license or registration fees.
Pure EVs have one rate, hybrids and PHEVs another.
It's only right - electric vehicles are typically heavier anyway, and they still use the same highways, bridges, etc.

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[johnchabin]

Tire residue will be the next environmental panic… and heavy EVs release more of it.

 

[ecidiego]

Tire residue will be the next environmental panic… and heavy EVs release more of it.

Not actually all that much heavier. The funny thing is people mention the 1000lb battery, but don't mention the EV doesn't have:

Engine and oil
Transmission and fluid
Clutch assembly or torque converter
Radiator and coolant
Alternator
Fuel pump, gas tank, gasoline
Power steering pump and fluid
Differential
Driveshaft


lol - yeah, that all weighs 100lbs tops.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Tire residue will be the next environmental panic… and heavy EVs release more of it.

If you replace "next" with "is the new current" you'd have it. Already a huge issue in some places.

Not actually all that much heavier. The funny thing is people mention the 1000lb battery, but don't mention the EV doesn't have:

Engine and oil
Transmission and fluid
Clutch assembly or torque converter
Radiator and coolant
Alternator
Fuel pump, gas tank, gasoline
Power steering pump and fluid
Differential
Driveshaft


lol - yeah, that all weighs 100lbs tops.

However, the safety shielding and other fun stuff - they are actually a lot heavier if it's a straight model to model comparison. Some EV SUVs have battery packs weighing well over 2,000 pounds.
The average, yes, is about 1,000 pounds. So it depends on the car. Small, light car - smaller, lighter battery pack. But make yourself a full sized SUV into an EV and you get above 1,000 pounds for the battery pack.
Depending on the EV, you still have the differential. It's going to vary with the design.

So I guess there's no one rule for an EV being massively heavier, or just a bit heavier - but in general, they will be heavier over-all.

Compare like to like - Mach E weighs in at 4,400-5,000 pounds. what's the gas powered Mustang of equal size weigh? A 2020 Mustang is 3800 pounds. So - removing the oil, radiator, transmission fluid and so on you still have a difference of up to 1200 pounds!! So no, the removal of the "gas engine stuff" doesn't offset the weight of the stuff for electrics.
The electric is anywhere from 600 to 1200 pounds heavier Mustang to Mustang - it's not just batteries.

Tesla Model S battery is 1,200 pounds - of course electric motors are not light (and they get hot and have to be kept cool in some way. Using power of any sort means heat. )
You have all that torque and HP - so the drive train components still have to be tough, can't lighten them up much or you'll break things.

Get into the full-size electric SUVs and you'll have batteries weighing in at a ton.
Bad enough on a JLU and it's only a hybrid.

 

[ecidiego]

You can't compare a 4 seater Mustang ( muscle car ) to the 5 seater Mach E ( SUV like an Acura RDX ). It's a much fatter and larger car.

 

[ecidiego]

Granted it was idiotic for Ford to name it such. Different cars:

A better comparison is the Mach E Select to an Acura RDX

https://www.caranddriver.com/acura/rdx/specs

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-mach-e/specs

RDX: 4014
Mach E Select: 4394


Not the big deal people make it out to be. Huge mistake comparing a 4 seat performance car to a crossover 5 seat hatchback - doesn't compare.

Is a full tank of gas factored into the RDX's curb weight?

 

[arskemp]

Not sure where people settled on this (I skimmed the thread), but this already mimicked my experience. I posted a thread a while back when I drove a Rivian R1T for a bit. Don't remember if I talked about costs, but I can believe some of this (definitely depends how you are charging).

I looked through my old spreadsheet I made at the time, and when I was driving the R1T and charging solely at Electrify America chargers (I live in a Townhouse so I can't home charge) I got the equivalent of 18.35 mpg. Yes, that's better than what I get in my jeep, but that is a far cry from the advertised "70 MPGe" and I would say right in the realm of no savings if you choose a more efficient truck of similar size.

In a similar experience, one of my friends owns both a Prius and a Model 3. When he is in town and charging at home they are always in the Tesla, but when he takes trips he found the Prius costs less per mile than the Tesla charging solely on Superchargers.

 

[johnchabin]

Not actually all that much heavier. The funny thing is people mention the 1000lb battery, but don't mention the EV doesn't have:

Engine and oil
Transmission and fluid
Clutch assembly or torque converter
Radiator and coolant
Alternator
Fuel pump, gas tank, gasoline
Power steering pump and fluid
Differential
Driveshaft


lol - yeah, that all weighs 100lbs tops.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...hicles-tires-wearing-out-particulates/674750/

I’m not making it up.

 

[ecidiego]

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...hicles-tires-wearing-out-particulates/674750/

I’m not making it up.

Didn't say you were. I read that in July when it was released. It's basically horseshit. You know right off the bat when it talks about brake dust and "EVs going through brakes faster because they're heavier". Completely false. Brakes last far longer because of regen braking. The brakes are rarely used at all. Zipper has a huge hard-on for Anti-EV propaganda. It's all he does these days.

The oil industry's propaganda war against EVs is comparable to Putin's Russia.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

You can't compare a 4 seater Mustang ( muscle car ) to the 5 seater Mach E ( SUV like an Acura RDX ). It's a much fatter and larger car.

Compare the Hummer EV to anything.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Granted it was idiotic for Ford to name it such. Different cars:

A better comparison is the Mach E Select to an Acura RDX

https://www.caranddriver.com/acura/rdx/specs

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-mach-e/specs

RDX: 4014
Mach E Select: 4394


Not the big deal people make it out to be. Huge mistake comparing a 4 seat performance car to a crossover 5 seat hatchback - doesn't compare.

Is a full tank of gas factored into the RDX's curb weight?

Now you are comparing different structures as well.
There really isn't a "direct" comparison because each company makes things very differently, which can account for hundreds of pounds of weight just in the structures.
Let's see - compare how a Ford is made vs. an Acura structure.........

In any case, you can't compare the battery weight only.
If you look at how an EV is made - what is lost in fluids and radiators and so on, has to be made up in cables, protective coverings, armor, shielding of the occupants from the HV system and more.
In general, EVs are, and will be, heavier - they have to be. Today's engines don't weigh a fraction of what yesterday's engines do - so the loss of engine weight is small.
The current 3.6 is about 325 pounds. Take that vs. the 500 pounds of a 4.0
So you lose a piddly 325 pounds by taking the engine out. Radiator - light as heck, too, a little coolant, etc. without doing the math, I bet losing that engine and coolant and radiator, you aren't losing much, if any, over 400 pounds.
There's such a huge variation on the motors - I think the Tesla Plaid motor is a bit over 200 pounds.

In the end, and the info is all over the place, generally speaking, as a group, EVs will be heavier than gas powered vehicles. It's being seen already. We could compare specific models all day long and it won't matter - if all gas powered vehicle disappeared today, replaced by EVs, the total weight would increase. Some would go up, others down but the average would be up.

It's not just batteries in play. You have electric heaters and electric AC compressors and solenoids and switches and heavy cables and safety shielding and more.
It's definitely going to take a toll on tires and roads.

I wonder what the Tesla semi weighs compared to the equiv in a diesel rig of the same capability?

 

[ecidiego]

Now you're going from Jeep 3.6 to a Tesla Plaid motor.....a 100k balls to the wall performance banshee. Is that the correct comparison? Compare to the RWD Model Y. You compared a Mustang to a Mach E as if they were similar class of vehicle and said the Mach E was 1200 lbs heavier. How was *I* comparing different structures? I made the comparison one between the same type - crossover versus crossover.

This is literally all FUD from the oil lobby.

 

[johnchabin]

Didn't say you were. I read that in July when it was released. It's basically horseshit. You know right off the bat when it talks about brake dust and "EVs going through brakes faster because they're heavier". Completely false. Brakes last far longer because of regen braking. The brakes are rarely used at all. Zipper has a huge hard-on for Anti-EV propaganda. It's all he does these days.

The oil industry's propaganda war against EVs is comparable to Putin's Russia.

Interesting analogy.

But I never mention “brake dust.” I’m talking about tires wearing more quickly and the additional pollution coming from the tire material left on the road.

I think the small battery hybrid hits the sweet spot. My wife has an Ionic 4 with a 30 mile range on battery, then hybrid. It’s been an excellent car. Both fuel efficient and practical.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Didn't say you were. I read that in July when it was released. It's basically horseshit. You know right off the bat when it talks about brake dust and "EVs going through brakes faster because they're heavier". Completely false. Brakes last far longer because of regen braking. The brakes are rarely used at all. Zipper has a huge hard-on for Anti-EV propaganda. It's all he does these days.

You are stopping a lot more mass, but - the regenerative braking does the work until you get down to single digit speeds, then the brake pads are used. At least on the 4xe. It's REALLY COOL! I love watching that power needly drop into the recharge range. Look, ma - no brakes needed!

I figure one might get 150,000 out of the brakes on a 4xe. Especially in max regen where it drags you back just by letting up on the throttle - the throttle applies the brakes, single pedal driving.
It's really cool.
While I agree there's more mass to stop and if there was no regenerative braking, you'd kill brakes in short order - they've really left that regen part out and it totally matters. The generators can dang near stop our heavy JLU, with the brakes being applied only when coming to an absolute complete stop.

I don't know about the brakes on a pure EV - but on a 4xe - I figure we will never ever need brake pads. (we're old enough, they'll outlive us!)
Where do they get that you'll burn through brake pads faster? No way. Then with modern brake materials - ceramics and such - it's not really harmful what little brake material is put out there.

 

[DarthAWM]

Now you're going from Jeep 3.6 to a Tesla Plaid motor.....a 100k balls to the wall performance banshee. Is that the correct comparison? Compare to the RWD Model Y. You compared a Mustang to a Mach E as if they were similar class of vehicle and said the Mach E was 1200 lbs heavier. How was *I* comparing different structures? I made the comparison one between the same type - crossover versus crossover.

This is literally all FUD from the oil lobby.

How about the F-150 Lightning coming in at 6500 Lbs coming a whopping 35% heaver than the ICE F-150?

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