Changing tranny oil for first time

[Rhino35]

I have 30k miles and did some hard off-roading and thought might be time to change oil. I will install PPE trans pan and I know I will add 1.5 qt. more than stock. Changing oil from factory oil to Amsoil, will that give tranny issue with different brand of oil??

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[WILDHOBO]

I have 30k miles and did some hard off-roading and thought might be time to change oil. I will install PPE trans pan and I know I will add 1.5 qt. more than stock. Changing oil from factory oil to Amsoil, will that give tranny issue with different brand of oil??

Do not do that. Super risky. Not telling you what to do with your vehicle, but be aware. Flushing these transmissions often dislodges things and grenades them. The recommendation from everyone knowledgeable is a pan drop and add fluid to get back to full. That means you’re only changing roughly 6 of the 9 quarts. If you mix different fluids that don’t play well together, you’ll kill your tranny. Not on day one, but soonish. Check other threads. There are real examples of this happening to people on this forum, with amsoil. It’s not the same type of fluid. Just stay with mopar and don’t crater your drivetrain.

 

[StevieY1]

ENJOY! haha

 

[Hootbro]

From a technical standpoint, there is nothing wrong with using the AMSOIL fluid. Just comes down to how risk adverse you are if you should have a problem? Using a non OEM fluid while in warranty just gives the dealership an out to point to and cause problem trying to resolve the issue.

Magnuson Moss Warranty Act says the burden is on the OEM/Dealership to show the use of an aftermarket fluid caused issue, but the working reality is that all they have to do is just claim it could have and puts the burden of proof to prove otherwise on you and to sue in Federal Civil Court on your own dime. Basically comes down to who has more money?

Path of least resistance while in warranty is to use OEM spec licensed fluid.

 

[WILDHOBO]

From a technical standpoint, there is nothing wrong with using the AMSOIL fluid. Just comes down to how risk adverse you are if you should have a problem? Using a non OEM fluid while in warranty just gives the dealership an out to point to and cause problem trying to resolve the issue.

Magnuson Moss Warranty Act says the burden is on the OEM/Dealership to show the use of an aftermarket fluid caused issue, but the working reality is that all they have to do is just claim it could have and puts the burden of proof to prove otherwise on you and to sue in Federal Civil Court on your own dime. Basically comes down to who has more money?

Path of least resistance while in warranty is to use OEM spec licensed fluid.

I agree for the most part. But I’ve read a lot of information about the fluid needing to match. It’d be one thing if all of it drained out, but you’re mixing 6+ new quarts with 3ish old quarts. It should be the identical formula.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I agree for the most part. But I’ve read a lot of information about the fluid needing to match. It’d be one thing if all of it drained out, but you’re mixing 6+ new quarts with 3ish old quarts. It should be the identical formula.

Yeah, I'd never change fluids when you are only changing PART of the fluid. Even the motor oil geek addresses potential chemistry issues/conflicts.

Changing oil from factory oil to Amsoil,

WHY? That's the thing I am wondering - why switch? The factory fluid is made specifically for that specific transmission.
Amsoil is one of those "it will work" semi-universal fluids.
Reading the info from ZF and other sources, I just don't get the desire to change fluids (and all of the possible risks that go with it)

 

[WILDHOBO]

Yeah, I'd never change fluids when you are only changing PART of the fluid. Even the motor oil geek addresses potential chemistry issues/conflicts.


WHY? That's the thing I am wondering - why switch? The factory fluid is made specifically for that specific transmission.
Amsoil is one of those "it will work" semi-universal fluids.
Reading the info from ZF and other sources, I just don't get the desire to change fluids (and all of the possible risks that go with it)

It makes no sense to me either.

 

[Hootbro]

I agree for the most part. But I’ve read a lot of information about the fluid needing to match. It’d be one thing if all of it drained out, but you’re mixing 6+ new quarts with 3ish old quarts. It should be the identical formula.

I ran mixed on my first Gladiator transmission fluid change with Valvoline MaxLife ATF to no detriment. Plenty of people both on the RAM, WRANGLER and BMW forums with ZF have also run mixed fluid changes to no detriment. Many on the RAM forums to include Hotshot drivers have serviced long term their ZF transmissions with non licensed fluids.

Property wise, the only thing the ZF licensed fluid excels in is a slightly lower cold flow property but for all intents, it has all the characteristics of a Dexron VI or Toyota WS standard fluid.

I am not here to convince anybody to not use a licensed fluid and from a practical standpoint while in warranty, I would not recommend it, but I am going to share my experience and different viewpoint and others can make their own informed decision.

The use of alternate non licensed fluids in ZF 8 Speeds is not new territory

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Property wise, the only thing the ZF licensed fluid excels in is a slightly lower cold flow property but for all intents, it has all the characteristics of a Dexron VI or Toyota WS standard fluid.

Is there actually a comparison out there showing all of the characteristics?
Friction characteristics? How does it impact the coefficient of friction of the clutch materials?
Heat transfer? (heat resistance as well) taking heat from the gears and bearings and shedding it in the cooler?
Antifoam properties
Surface tension
Viscosity over time (loss of viscosity) and over temperature?
Among a dozen other properties..........

I know people do it - and maybe even a lot do it, and most have no issues, but I still wonder why people switch.
I'll do switching in other areas, but I guess with these units being what they are, I see no reason to spend all of the time doing a fluid change - more often than is even needed by a lot - and then cheap out or try to cut a few bucks on the fluid.
People change fluid in these far more often than is even remotely needed - "cheap insurance" is their comment. Really? Then why change to other fluids? It's a contradiction to me.
The mixing of the different chemistries - to save a couple bucks but changing it a lot more often than is even needed?

 

[Hootbro]

Is there actually a comparison out there showing all of the characteristics?
Friction characteristics? How does it impact the coefficient of friction of the clutch materials?
Heat transfer? (heat resistance as well) taking heat from the gears and bearings and shedding it in the cooler?
Antifoam properties
Surface tension
Viscosity over time (loss of viscosity) and over temperature?
Among a dozen other properties..........

I know people do it - and maybe even a lot do it, and most have no issues, but I still wonder why people switch.
I'll do switching in other areas, but I guess with these units being what they are, I see no reason to spend all of the time doing a fluid change - more often than is even needed by a lot - and then cheap out or try to cut a few bucks on the fluid.
People change fluid in these far more often than is even remotely needed - "cheap insurance" is their comment. Really? Then why change to other fluids? It's a contradiction to me.
The mixing of the different chemistries - to save a couple bucks but changing it a lot more often than is even needed?

Yeah, I am not doing a Engineering White Paper nor do I really care about it that much.

I am not making an argument I am more right because of "X, Y & Z" on the subject but just offering a different viewpoint and experience.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Is there actually a comparison out there showing all of the characteristics?
Friction characteristics? How does it impact the coefficient of friction of the clutch materials?
Heat transfer? (heat resistance as well) taking heat from the gears and bearings and shedding it in the cooler?
Antifoam properties
Surface tension
Viscosity over time (loss of viscosity) and over temperature?
Among a dozen other properties..........

I know people do it - and maybe even a lot do it, and most have no issues, but I still wonder why people switch.
I'll do switching in other areas, but I guess with these units being what they are, I see no reason to spend all of the time doing a fluid change - more often than is even needed by a lot - and then cheap out or try to cut a few bucks on the fluid.
People change fluid in these far more often than is even remotely needed - "cheap insurance" is their comment. Really? Then why change to other fluids? It's a contradiction to me.
The mixing of the different chemistries - to save a couple bucks but changing it a lot more often than is even needed?

Completely agree. Here’s the argument I have yet to hear. No one has said why those other fluid options are supposedly better than mopar atf 8/9 fluid. The only reason to switch is to save money on fluid. Dumb in my opinion. It’s like going to an aftermarket blood bank for a transfusion. Not worth even the potential cost.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Yeah, I am not doing a Engineering White Paper nor do I really care about it that much.

I am not making an argument I am more right because of "X, Y & Z" on the subject but just offering a different viewpoint and experience.

So forget the science. Tell me why you want to use anything else. Anything else. Why switch? Even if many people get away with it. Why is it BETTER to mix the tranny fluid?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Completely agree. Here’s the argument I have yet to hear. No one has said why those other fluid options are supposedly better than mopar atf 8/9 fluid. The only reason to switch is to save money on fluid. Dumb in my opinion. It’s like going to an aftermarket blood bank for a transfusion. Not worth even the potential cost.

A universal fluid has to "meet" several specs - however, that's not really very easy to do these days as it was 40 years ago. One company may have a specific range for fluid to meet "stickiness" or impact on the friction of disks made with specific materials, another may have a different range. Granted, those ranges can overlap, but unless they are identical, they will be out of that range some of the time.
Some have had good luck - proven by a few members here.
Some have had horrible luck - proven also by members of forums and FB pages and other places.
Chemists - including the "motor oil geek" has said over and over and over - don't mix chemistry - doing so can actually LOWER the wear protection ability of an oil. ATF is an oil. Meaning, it may work, but could shorten the life of the unit. He also talks over and over about double-changes (referring to oil) to flush out the other brand of oil before using the new brand or viscosity.
Even the same company often greatly varies the chemistry or additive packages of their oil depending on the viscosity you buy.
Yes, that's oil, but when you change from one brand of ATF, one chemistry, to another - it's a risk. Is that worth saving a few bucks or buying that "brand I really like based on the name"?
You are leaving quarts of fluid behind in the transmission, clutch packs, converter, valve body and so on.
Clearances in the valve bodies are so tight a piece of dust you can't easily see can lock a valve solid in the bore - I want a fluid made for that valve body.
How a clutch pack engages depends on a lot of factors - these actually track the time it takes to engage and more - the exact viscosity of that fluid matters a lot, and how smoothly those clutches engage and disengage depends totally on the additives in that fluid - mixing can change that.
It's a fact that mixing oils can actually DECREASE performance of the oils when mixed together - it seems to me that it's at least possible on ATF to actually decrease performance - and that means anti-oxidation, lubrication qualities for the bearings and gears, the additives to keep SEALS alive, clutch and band friction modifiers (each company has their own materials they use). A universal oil can't be perfect for all makes, it just has to be "ok" and meat certain minimums.

I keep going back to this - you want to change it very frequently believing you are saving money later by spending a lot more on frequent changes, but won't spend the money on the product that's a perfect match in chemistry and all properties for that specific unit.
It's a contradiction I don't get. I'll spend the money changing it every 30,000 miles even though you can go double that, but I won't spend money for the recommended fluid because I have a favorite brand.

We can go back to - it's your Jeep, if you have had ok luck doing it, that's fine.
No one can prove or disprove that it will not last just as long with the recommended fluid. It's simply not possible.
But I can go to some engineers' quotes on how mixing can have a negative impact on the chemistry. (multiple engineers)

We've seen and heard from both sides - the: it works for me group, and the: it doesn't work for me group.

People just need to choose. Read, research, and decide what's your risk tolerance.

 

[WILDHOBO]

A universal fluid has to "meet" several specs - however, that's not really very easy to do these days as it was 40 years ago. One company may have a specific range for fluid to meet "stickiness" or impact on the friction of disks made with specific materials, another may have a different range. Granted, those ranges can overlap, but unless they are identical, they will be out of that range some of the time.
Some have had good luck - proven by a few members here.
Some have had horrible luck - proven also by members of forums and FB pages and other places.
Chemists - including the "motor oil geek" has said over and over and over - don't mix chemistry - doing so can actually LOWER the wear protection ability of an oil. ATF is an oil. Meaning, it may work, but could shorten the life of the unit. He also talks over and over about double-changes (referring to oil) to flush out the other brand of oil before using the new brand or viscosity.
Even the same company often greatly varies the chemistry or additive packages of their oil depending on the viscosity you buy.
Yes, that's oil, but when you change from one brand of ATF, one chemistry, to another - it's a risk. Is that worth saving a few bucks or buying that "brand I really like based on the name"?
You are leaving quarts of fluid behind in the transmission, clutch packs, converter, valve body and so on.
Clearances in the valve bodies are so tight a piece of dust you can't easily see can lock a valve solid in the bore - I want a fluid made for that valve body.
How a clutch pack engages depends on a lot of factors - these actually track the time it takes to engage and more - the exact viscosity of that fluid matters a lot, and how smoothly those clutches engage and disengage depends totally on the additives in that fluid - mixing can change that.
It's a fact that mixing oils can actually DECREASE performance of the oils when mixed together - it seems to me that it's at least possible on ATF to actually decrease performance - and that means anti-oxidation, lubrication qualities for the bearings and gears, the additives to keep SEALS alive, clutch and band friction modifiers (each company has their own materials they use). A universal oil can't be perfect for all makes, it just has to be "ok" and meat certain minimums.

I keep going back to this - you want to change it very frequently believing you are saving money later by spending a lot more on frequent changes, but won't spend the money on the product that's a perfect match in chemistry and all properties for that specific unit.
It's a contradiction I don't get. I'll spend the money changing it every 30,000 miles even though you can go double that, but I won't spend money for the recommended fluid because I have a favorite brand.

We can go back to - it's your Jeep, if you have had ok luck doing it, that's fine.
No one can prove or disprove that it will not last just as long with the recommended fluid. It's simply not possible.
But I can go to some engineers' quotes on how mixing can have a negative impact on the chemistry. (multiple engineers)

We've seen and heard from both sides - the: it works for me group, and the: it doesn't work for me group.

People just need to choose. Read, research, and decide what's your risk tolerance.

I’m switching again to the simple debate method. I don’t have the time education to know the chemistry. But I’m a very good troubleshooter, as required by my career. I work the variables. I want someone to explain WHY IT IS BETTER to use any fluid other than Mopar atf 8/9. Show me that and we can continue the debate. But if that reason is cost alone, in my opinion, that will never be a reason.

Translating to my expertise. And this is just an example. Cisco often has competitors that cost less than their solutions. But Cisco has yet to fail me, so show me that Fortigate is better, and I’ll consider that solution for my clients instead. But all I’m told is that it’s cheaper. I’ll stick with Cisco regardless of cost. No one has ever been fired for installing Cisco equipment, correctly.

But there are absolutely examples to the contrary. Cybernetics makes absolutely amazing storage arrays. They perform better than many mainstream vendors, and they cost less, and their support is better. But there is data to prove this. Therefore I implement their arrays at my clients almost exclusively. Not a single client has been anything but elated with better performance and support for less money. But it took me 5 years to finally even consider them as a consultant. My name goes on what I recommend. I’m not recommending something that could risk my reputation if it goes sideways.

Why should transmission fluid (oil) be any different. Cheaper? I don’t care. Better? I’m interested in specifically how.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I’m switching again to the simple debate method. I don’t have the time education to know the chemistry. But I’m a very good troubleshooter, as required by my career. I work the variables. I want someone to explain WHY IT IS BETTER to use any fluid other than Mopar atf 8/9. Show me that and we can continue the debate. But if that reason is cost alone, in my opinion, that will never be a reason.

Translating to my expertise. And this is just an example. Cisco often has competitors that cost less than their solutions. But Cisco has yet to fail me, so show me that Fortigate is better, and I’ll consider that solution for my clients instead. But all I’m told is that it’s cheaper. I’ll stick with Cisco regardless of cost. No one has ever been fired for installing Cisco equipment, correctly.

But there are absolutely examples to the contrary. Cybernetics makes absolutely amazing storage arrays. They perform better than many mainstream vendors, and they cost less, and their support is better. But there is data to prove this. Therefore I implement their arrays at my clients almost exclusively. Not a single client has been anything but elated with better performance and support for less money. But it took me 5 years to finally even consider them as a consultant. My name goes on what I recommend. I’m not recommending something that could risk my reputation if it goes sideways.

Why should transmission fluid (oil) be any different. Cheaper? I don’t care. Better? I’m interested in specifically how.

Juniper makes danged nice switches that work fantastic as core switches in an enterprise. Their programming is such that if you know a Juniper router, you know a Juniper switch or other device.

Oh, wait - ATF............

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