E15?

[TimC]

Amazing how clean energy is the goal … yet E15 is dirtier burning.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Amazing how clean energy is the goal … yet E15 is dirtier burning.

Where did you get that?
It's a fact, and the LAW, that it can't burn "dirtier". Can't be. It actually removes deposits left by gasoline so if you have an older vehicle that has always run pure gas for 70,000 miles and then suddenly put a blend in it, the ethanol will dissolve the gums and varnishes in the fuel system that gas left behind and can, yes, plug filters, etc. - but that's because of the dirty gas.
Ethanol burns a lot cleaner. Have you ever seen the insides of engines that run on ethanol? They are much cleaner that the chambers of pure gas engines. It burns 100%.
It reduces CO emissions by as much as 25%

 

[TimC]

https://jalopnik.com/biden-administration-plans-to-allow-dirty-e15-gas-to-be-1848781849

I too would have thought more ethanol = cleaner burning

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/biden-ethanol-gas-prices

 

[TrainMan]

My Silverado was a Flex Fuel vehicle. I ran E85 for a while from Sheetz (the only station that offered it), and after the 3rd tank my truck began to idle rough, sometimes sounding like it was going to stall especially after startup. This really scared me! So as soon as I had room in the tank I filled up with Exxon premium, let it run through, and filled up a fresh tank with more Exxon premium. After a a week or so, the engine began running normal again and I started using regular. Moral: Even if it says "E85 Capable" I'll never touch the stuff again. I don't trust more than 10% ethanol in any of my vehicles.

 

[TimC]

My Silverado was a Flex Fuel vehicle. I ran E85 for a while from Sheetz (the only station that offered it), and after the 3rd tank my truck began to idle rough, sometimes sounding like it was going to stall especially after startup. This really scared me! So as soon as I had room in the tank I filled up with Exxon premium, let it run through, and filled up a fresh tank with more Exxon premium. After a a week or so, the engine began running normal again and I started using regular. Moral: Even if it says "E85 Capable" I'll never touch the stuff again. I don't trust more than 10% ethanol in any of my vehicles.

I had a flex-fuel Impala . Tried E85 once.. ran like crap and it knocked my mpg down quite a bit. The best part of E85 capability is the stainless steel fuel system...

 

[ShadowsPapa]

LOL - an opinion piece from jalopnik. Good one. That echoes rolling stone from a few years ago. Real funny.
The issue is evaporation, not burning dirtier.
You get your info from the wrong sources.



Myth: Ethanol actually increases air pollution.

Fact: There can be no increase in emission from ethanol-blended fuels; it's the law. In fact, ethanol reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 25 percent and displaces components of gasoline that produce toxic emissions that cause cancer and other diseases.

From another source:

Ethanol can reduce pollution
Ethanol and ethanol-gasoline mixtures burn cleaner and have higher octane levels than pure gasoline, but they also have higher evaporative emissions from fuel tanks and dispensing equipment.

Does ethanol burn more cleanly than gasoline?
Ethanol helps keep engines clean, too. It burns more completely and at a slightly cooler temperature than gasoline. This means longer spark plug life and fewer combustion deposits. Ethanol burns well because it is an oxygenate, meaning that ethanol molecules contain oxygen.

Using ethanol instead of gasoline helps reduce carbon dioxide emissions by an average of 34 percent, even when hypothetical land use emissions are factored in. In 2013, 13.3 billion gallons of ethanol were produced, reducing greenhouse gas emissions from on-road vehicles by 38 million metric tons — the equivalent of removing 8 million cars from the road.

Ethanol also reduces tailpipe emissions by as much as 30 percent and cuts down on smog. Minnesota’s metro communities were not in compliance with Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) air quality standards until blending 10 percent ethanol in all gasoline helped clean the air.

From VOX (we all know about VOX)
"It’s quite a reasonable representation of the way things stand today," he said. That representation suggests that even if we include the impact of indirect land use change, the corn ethanol mixed with our gasoline today has 20 percent less greenhouse gas impact than oil.


My Silverado was a flex fuel vehicle - and I ran E85 and it was not only fine, but it towed better due to the extra HP got. Yes, the LS engine when running E85 was proven to output more HP (due to the fact the ECU could retune it)
The issue isn't the ethanol itself, it's the stations, pumps and distribution. If there's a problem, it's not the fuel, it's the batch YOU got. So saying it's bad is a conclusion based on a single use from a single source. Also possible contributing factors - if the gas you had used left deposits in the tank and lines, the ethanol will dissolve those and carry them forward. So it may have been a result of the crap in the tank before the ethanol. It's a cleaner, it washes away the varnish and crud gas leaves behind.
The State of Iowa mandated it in their fleet vehicles years ago - no issues. I drove many state vehicles in my work, no issues.

Haters are gonna hate, it's what they do, science be damned, doesn't matter, they read opinion pieces in rolling stone or had an experience they blame on the ethanol when it was in reality something else - like the shit in the system the ethanol was cleaning out. Whatever, doesn't matter, haters gonna hate.
I've run it for decades, all versions, in everything, I worked in the field when it was introduced, I've worked on almost every type of gas powered equipment there is, new and old, and run U88 in our Jeeps for months, no issues. But then I've never run crap pure gas which leaves varnish and junk in the system so there's nothing for the ethanol to clean up and mess with.
When you put a cleaner in a dirty tank with varnish in the lines, yes, you'll have trouble.

 

[TimC]

Popular Science is a hater too (yes, science in their name)

https://www.popsci.com/corn-ethanol-smog/

or was it the Whitehouse they hated?

 

[Lost1wing]

Borderline ok? Naw, it's fine. We've had a similar discussion in the Eagle areas of the web - no damage, no problem. These 3.6 were actually redesigned in about 2015 with the idea of them being flex fuel among other things.
Modern materials hold up fine.
I've been running it for - well, can't remember, but for months for sure.
NO drop in mpg over the other stuff - maybe because that extra octane point allows the ECU to tweak things a bit more.
I've said this before - but university studies have shown no appreciable difference compared to 10% as far as mpg. That extra 5% remember is 5% of a whole, so when you say "a gallon of ethanol has xxx lower BTUs, well, you have to do the math as it's only changing by 5%, not the whole gallon numbers. And since the computer controls can compensate for the octane and temperature burn difference, you really don't see a difference in the grand scheme. You change mpg more in what you put in and on your truck or how you drive.

Money on repair bills? What repair bills? There won't be any repair bills. The materials in these things is basically the same stuff used in flex fuel vehicles. The materials can handle it easily.

You basically get the same mpg as 10% and it actually burns cleaner, so there's a bit less chance for build-up in the engine. Those clear cylinder demo engines run on alcohol because it burns cleanly and completely.



There are about 75,000 BTU in a gallon of ethanol; it takes about 35,000 BTU to grow the corn and produce the ethanol; you can get about 500 gallons of ethanol from an acre of corn; and thus the net energy gain is about 20 million BTU per acre.
Put another way -
An acre of corn producing 175 bushels will generate about 500 gallons of ethanol. That ethanol has 37.5 million BTU of energy but required 17.5 million BTU to produce, for a GAIN - a grand total of 20 million BTU of net energy.
Iowa's average yield in 2020 was 177 bushels/acre
Last year it topped 200 - so the net gain of energy is even larger.

For those of us that have older cars and equipment, ethanol has not worked out very well. I know that since ethanol has been around, manufacturers have taken that into consideration for their products. Also, ethanol does not store well. From what I read about fuel economy on the .GOV web site, your mpg decrease because of less energy with ethanol. The only reason to use ethanol is that it is cleaner burning. The purpose of the 15% was a way to put more fuel in the domestic market. Unfortunately, you will need to buy more ethanol fuel to achieve the same results as gasoline. I know we are talking about a 5% change, but in the end you will burn more fuel.

 

[Lost1wing]

I have a couple of 4.6l ford CV's. One I can burn any pump fuel except e85, haven't tried it actually. The other CV can only run on 92 octane or better. It will also burn 87 octane if non- ethanol. Detonation on heavy throttle input is my only observation. Tail pipes look the same, we don't smog test where I am.

 

[Zissou]

E15 is totally fine in our trucks because they were designed for it, like pretty much any new car that can run 87 octane. Idk why random people thinks they know better than the team of engineers that built the engine because they once had a leaf blower engine stop working 20 years ago.

LMFAO at these people who think ethanol is the devil. Your minds would be blown if you saw what an e85 tune does for something like a mustang. Insane power when tuned for it. Love the corn juice.

 

[Lost1wing]

E15 is totally fine in our trucks because they were designed for it, like pretty much any new car that can run 87 octane. Idk why random people thinks they know better than the team of engineers that built the engine because they once had a leaf blower engine stop working 20 years ago.

LMFAO at these people who think ethanol is the devil. Your minds would be blown if you saw what an e85 tune does for something like a mustang. Insane power when tuned for it. Love the corn juice.

I'm not a hater, more of an engineer. Tune a Mustang for e85 and then the same for non-ethanol 87 and I will bet on the non ethanol. Or compare apples to apples 87 w/10% ethanol and 87 non-ethanol. In a power contest, the non- ethanol would win. However, you will expel more hydrocarbons with the non-ethanol. E85 works for our engines, but I would say, not better. And definitely, will not work in older engines. E85 only has a shelf life of 90 days. I don't know how it suffers. Does the flashpoint decrease, does the octane level drop or does it absorb too much moisture after the 90 days. I wouldn't want it in my equipment.

 

[Zissou]

I'm not a hater, more of an engineer. Tune a Mustang for e85 and then the same for non-ethanol 87 and I will bet on the non ethanol. Or compare apples to apples 87 w/10% ethanol and 87 non-ethanol. In a power contest, the non- ethanol would win. However, you will expel more hydrocarbons with the non-ethanol. E85 works for our engines, but I would say, not better. And definitely, will not work in older engines. E85 only has a shelf life of 90 days. I don't know how it suffers. Does the flashpoint decrease, does the octane level drop or does it absorb too much moisture after the 90 days. I wouldn't want it in my equipment.

I'm not an engineer, but I am an analyst.
I was always researching how to get more power from my previous car (the 2016 mustang gt) and I never once came across 0% ethanol tunes. It was always 91/93 tunes and then the e85 flex tunes for street driving. e85 made the most power all else equal.

Regarding older engines - the Gladiator has only been out a couple years so I don't think that's an issue for us. For me personally, I'm driving mine at least every 90 days, so that's not a biggie for me. If you were storing it at another house then yeah I would not go for an e85 tune.

Did a little research into what the corn juice can do for us. Found tuners that compare stock vs 93 vs e85. I'm sure the e85 gets the worst fuel econ out of the 3, but it does make the most power. I was most surprised by the 93 octane tune - that was much closer to the e85 than I expected honestly.

Here's that video; dynos start at about 2:50. This Gladiator has a cold air intake (on every run including the stock tune).


Let me know if you have dynos of 0% ethanol vs anything else. I'd be curious to see what that results in.

 

[RiverMtnBeach]

Yep I have a giant Buccee's about 5 miles from my house rows and rows of ethanol free gas. Its the only place I know around me that has it. I have to pay a bit more for it. Could all just be in my head but seems my truck runs a bit better on the ethanol free gas

If just a few cents more, you'll actually get a bit more mpg's from E0. My trade was a Flex Fuel Commander, and E85 gave me about 3-5mpg less than E10. Funny thing about methanol is it runs cooler and seems to give you noticeable boost in torque. I actually tried to run a tank of E85 when towing because it kept my temps down and easier to get up to highway speeds. First fill-up in Barstow with E10 and it would last longer, but slower and the temps would go up. Even more pronounced when hot out or high altitude. I'm sure there's a chemistry reason why out there somewhere!

 

[NachoRuby]

Back in my performance car days, which weren't too long ago, I remember that e85 tunes always made significantly more power than 91 or 93 octane tunes. Mind you, these were turbo cars. The main limiting factor was the fuel pumps, and flow. But e85 always made way more power.

 

[BaliMawr]

Popular Science is a hater too (yes, science in their name)

https://www.popsci.com/corn-ethanol-smog/

or was it the Whitehouse they hated?

PopSci is kinda like pop culture. Both are POPULAR, but that doesn't mean either is high on either science or culture.

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