EV - not ready for the masses?

[Klutch]

A few "fun" points:

- Oil companies have formed multiple organizations to promote petroleum and vilify every other energy source. They pay people to work for these organizations and they quite literally lie for a living. (It's very similar to the "Tobacco Institute" which used to put people on TV insisting there was no proof smoking causes cancer.)

- Fox News has a lot of people from these oil company organizations on their shows. These people are literally paid oil company shills. Some of the information they present is accurate. Much of it is misinformation, conspiracy theories or exaggerations. Thus, I would be very skeptical of anything coming from these oil company shills

- EVs certainly aren't for everyone; especially people in rural areas who must drive long distances where there aren't any public charging stations. For them, it's a very big, "No bueno!"

- For some people EVs are a very good solution. I work at a facility about 15 miles outside of town. Many of my coworkers commute in EVs. They have more than enough range to get them to work and back blasting the heat or air conditioning. They plug in at home overnight and pass every gas station

- Not all lithium mining involves massive strip mining. Most lithium currently comes from South American rivers with no strip mining. Efforts are currently underway to extract the MASSIVE amounts of lithium at the Salton Sea area. There are currently multiple geothermal power plants there. They use the super-hot water from the below the ground to make electricity. That electricity will soon be used to extract the lithium from the water below the ground

Don't like EVs? Cool. Don't buy one. You have a very long time to keep buying new ICE-powered trucks and SUVs. But please do not spread misinformation, lies and conspiracy theories surrounding EVs and EV technology. That too is, "No bueno!". If you hear or read something about EV technology, do some investigating from multiple sources to see if the information is true, exaggerated or outright false

Happy Jeeping!

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[Klutch]

That's right, because the government can run and regulate a power company so much better than a private entity.

Unfortunately, multiple power companies have proven they can't successfully maintain and operate a power grid. They decided to forgo maintenance in favor of higher, short term profits. (Southern California Edison is the biggest example.)

 

[BA33]

That's right, because the government can run and regulate a power company so much better than a private entity.

Maybe we're just lucky ?‍. All I know is that my electric bill (entire house is electric) is under $100 a month year round and our entire grid didn't implode with the first flake of snow, leaving people to freeze in their houses.

 

[j.o.y.ride]

Okay so even if your numbers are accurate, which I really do not think they are, what are they doing to generate electricity? I'm pretty sure that they don't have a network of squirrels running on circle treadmills, generating this electricity. They have to be burning something, because the government hasn't allowed any new nuclear power stations, from what I can tell.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2020/august/ercot.php#:~:text=Generation, Demand and Capacity,as renewable resources, primarily wind.

sorry, retyped 20 from texas on WV, but TX where you are is indeed 20%.

Burning something yes, big changeover to natural gas. But also change over to renewables is happening, burning less and less.

In 2020 CA got 33% from renewable. CA and NV lead in solar.

Iowa gets 57% of it's generation from wind. Others are surprisingly high as well.

https://iub.iowa.gov/iowas-electric-profile

 

[j.o.y.ride]

That's right, because the government can run and regulate a power company so much better than a private entity.

Enron was private
ERCOT is a non profit corporation

Neither are public, both from Texas, both are disasters.

 

[Jakeyou]

A few "fun" points:

- Oil companies have formed multiple organizations to promote petroleum and vilify every other energy source. They pay people to work for these organizations and they quite literally lie for a living. (It's very similar to the "Tobacco Institute" which used to put people on TV insisting there was no proof smoking causes cancer.)

- Fox News has a lot of people from these oil company organizations on their shows. These people are literally paid oil company shills. Some of the information they present is accurate. Much of it is misinformation, conspiracy theories or exaggerations. Thus, I would be very skeptical of anything coming from these oil company shills

- EVs certainly aren't for everyone; especially people in rural areas who must drive long distances where there aren't any public charging stations. For them, it's a very big, "No bueno!"

- For some people EVs are a very good solution. I work at a facility about 15 miles outside of town. Many of my coworkers commute in EVs. They have more than enough range to get them to work and back blasting the heat or air conditioning. They plug in at home overnight and pass every gas station

- Not all lithium mining involves massive strip mining. Most lithium currently comes from South American rivers with no strip mining. Efforts are currently underway to extract the MASSIVE amounts of lithium at the Salton Sea area. There are currently multiple geothermal power plants there. They use the super-hot water from the below the ground to make electricity. That electricity will soon be used to extract the lithium from the water below the ground

Don't like EVs? Cool. Don't buy one. You have a very long time to keep buying new ICE-powered trucks and SUVs. But please do not spread misinformation, lies and conspiracy theories surrounding EVs and EV technology. That too is, "No bueno!". If you hear or read something about EV technology, do some investigating from multiple sources to see if the information is true, exaggerated or outright false

Happy Jeeping!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/

 

[FLGladiator]

Please be mindful of conspiracy theories. There are clearly some $TSLA share holders in this post.

 

[stampedingTurtles]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/

Since you just posted a link and no comment, I'm not sure if this was meant to refute some of the comments you were replying to, or to serve as an example of the point about checking the sources of information for potential bias?

 

[dcmdon]

.30 cents is really high for the majority of the country. Thats super charger or hawaii or california peak time rates, the country average is just over 10 cents. Tesla's also are closer to .25kwh a mile not .4. Using more realistic numbers you are at 4.20 on the high end for yours, and average of more like 90 cents.

Most of deregulated America incurs significant electric transportation costs. If you just look at generating cost, yes 10 cents. For the northeast, when you figure in generating and transport costs plus taxes and fees, it works out to close to 30 cents per kwh. You can't just google "electric rate". The "rate" doesn't include all the fees and taxes.

Where as the pump cost of a gallon of gas IS inclusive of all fees and taxes.

I guess the northeast is a high market. But still 10 cents including all taxes and fees is ridiculously low.

I just did some quick research and you are right. The model Y in real life is closer to .3 kwh/mi on the highway. Its going to do better in the city so I guess it depends on the commute.

If we assume .3 kwh/mi and 20 cents/kwh, you are at 2.10 in electricity for the commute. So in that case a BEV would cost less than half.

But then again, most PHEVs could do that trip in all electric and would cost less to buy and have essentially unlimited range with no range anxiety.

 

[dcmdon]

In the Pacific Northwest, something like 2/3 of our electricity is generated via hydro. We also have abundant wind power and even some solar. It's the perfect place for electric or PHEV adoption. On top of that, our electricity rates are the lowest in the country. In addition, at least where I live, our electric supply comes from a public utility.

Battery production will get cleaner and with longer range. Hydrogen will continue to develop. Isn't it Norway that has the "Hydrogen Highway"? More renewable electricity will continue to be generated and the grid will continue to get bolstered and capacity expanded. It will be interesting to see how the next decade plays out.

Remember that Hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

There is no elemental hydrogen in nature for us to burn. You need to make it by electrolyzing water by putting electricity through it.

When you do this you use electricity to make hydrogen. The energy in the hydrogen you create is theoretically equal to the energy in the electricity you use to make it.

So hydrogen is an energy STORAGE medium. Its not an energy source.

You can use wind power to make hydrogen on windy days and then burn it when the wind doesn't blow. In this way, hydrogen scales to grid scale better than batteries with current tech.

You could also make hydrogen with a nuclear plant or hydro plant in the evenings when demand is low then burn that hydrogen in a car during the day or run it in a fuel cell. Either way, its the same thing done 2 different ways.
1) burn hydrogen in an engine, you get mechanical energy.
2) catalyze hydrogen in a fuel cell and get electricity, use the electricity to make mechanical energy.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a fuel cell to electric system is going to get more mechanical energy out of a given amount of hydrogen.

 

[MPMB]

If I remember, EVs/Hybrids are better off in commute environments, not long, cruising highway drives.

In the PNW, we have cheap power. So many hydroelectric dams and growing wind farms, and of course a nuclear.

The issue we have is terrain issues. Trees, mudslides, flood, etc., that kill power for hours or days.

 

[j.o.y.ride]

Remember that Hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

There is no elemental hydrogen in nature for us to burn. You need to make it by electrolyzing water by putting electricity through it.

When you do this you use electricity to make hydrogen. The energy in the hydrogen you create is theoretically equal to the energy in the electricity you use to make it.

So hydrogen is an energy STORAGE medium. Its not an energy source.

You can use wind power to make hydrogen on windy days and then burn it when the wind doesn't blow. In this way, hydrogen scales to grid scale better than batteries with current tech.

You could also make hydrogen with a nuclear plant or hydro plant in the evenings when demand is low then burn that hydrogen in a car during the day or run it in a fuel cell. Either way, its the same thing done 2 different ways.
1) burn hydrogen in an engine, you get mechanical energy.
2) catalyze hydrogen in a fuel cell and get electricity, use the electricity to make mechanical energy.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a fuel cell to electric system is going to get more mechanical energy out of a given amount of hydrogen.

The in-car battery to wheels is going to be more efficient than hydrogen to wheels.

The major difference is in refueling. Hydrogen can be topped off in the same time as gasoline.

 

[MisterPhoton]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/

That's an op-ed from a guy who works in the oil and gas sector. Wonder which way he'll approach the subject?

 

[stampedingTurtles]

Remember that Hydrogen is NOT an energy source.

There is no elemental hydrogen in nature for us to burn. You need to make it by electrolyzing water by putting electricity through it.

When you do this you use electricity to make hydrogen. The energy in the hydrogen you create is theoretically equal to the energy in the electricity you use to make it.

So hydrogen is an energy STORAGE medium. Its not an energy source.

You can use wind power to make hydrogen on windy days and then burn it when the wind doesn't blow. In this way, hydrogen scales to grid scale better than batteries with current tech.

You could also make hydrogen with a nuclear plant or hydro plant in the evenings when demand is low then burn that hydrogen in a car during the day or run it in a fuel cell. Either way, its the same thing done 2 different ways.
1) burn hydrogen in an engine, you get mechanical energy.
2) catalyze hydrogen in a fuel cell and get electricity, use the electricity to make mechanical energy.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a fuel cell to electric system is going to get more mechanical energy out of a given amount of hydrogen.

Hyrdogen from water is one possible source, I believe the most common source currently is extraction from natural gas.

The note about it being a storage medium is really important, and there are some interesting articles and videos out there pointing out that there are some issues with it in these regards; when it comes to actually have a "hydrogen station" instead of a "gas station" you are faced with some transport and storage dilemmas (transport and storage at cryo temps means it needs to be refridgerated which can be a significant ongoing energy use, high pressure means large heavy pressure vessels for transport) and the alternative of producing it from water onsite is possible, but will consume a significant amount of electricity (which of course leads to an efficiency question of why take the electricity, use it to produce hydrogen, then put that in a vehicle where it is used to produce electricity to drive the vehicle). In applications where the power density is beneficial it may make sense (trucking, aircraft).

Everything I can find indicates that fuel-cell and electric motors are significantly more efficient than hydrogen combustion.

Right now, hydrogen is actually fairly expensive for use as a motor fuel, and it in terms of cost per mile BEVs beat FCEVs significantly, but of course advancements in technology can make a big difference; we've seen huge improvements in energy density, overall vehicle energy efficiency, and charging speeds for electric cars over the last few years, and we may see significant improvements at different steps of the FCEV cycle.

 

[fourfa]

There is no elemental hydrogen in nature for us to burn. You need to make it by electrolyzing water by putting electricity through it.

Hyrdogen from water is one possible source, I believe the most common source currently is extraction from natural gas.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-resources
"Today 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States is made by natural gas reforming in large central plants"

For perhaps decades to come, you'd be better off just burning natural gas in your ICE than hydrogen. Storage density ain't great with CNG, better with LNG, but still better than any viable hydrogen tank in a consumer vehicle (another topic entirely)

Can hydrogen be a useful energy pathway for vehicles, sure maybe someday. By that time the responses in this thread would probably look a lot different

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