Lemon / defect process tips (discussion) from non-experts

[AnmiP]

Tips for defective vehicle or lemon process.

**Edit: this is not legal advice, nor am I claiming to be an expert. This is intended for the sharing of knowledge and opinions.**

• Arm yourself with knowledge of your issues. This forum provides a wealth of knowledge and links to sources to aid with this.
• Meticulously detail everything you can. Dates, mileage, and description of issues. Dates, names, and content of contact with service departments, Jeep representatives, etc. (Don’t assume work orders will be accurate, my service department either made errors or forged information on mine)
• Get as much as you can in writing. (This does not always guarantee success, as Jeep did not follow through on promises they made in writing to me).
• Especially during arbitration: provide as much detail and evidence as possible. Be prepared to provide evidence for EVERYTHING! (Such as: Why your defect is a problem. I.e. Evidence that a mechanical defect affects resale value; or why excessive vibration makes a vehicle undrivable; or how it negatively affects your life when you don’t have access to your newly purchased vehicle for months.) Don’t assume that common knowledge is enough. You have to be ready to argue obvious things as silly as why a non-operable vehicle would prevent you from driving to work.
• Start your state’s Lemon process as early as you can, even if you think the manufacturer will be able to remedy your defects. For example, Maryland instructs the consumer to begin sending certified mail. (w/ receipt confirmation) as soon as your vehicle is approaching the criteria for a lemon. If you start the process / notifications early you can always stop the process if the issue is fixed. (If you delay, you may run into a bureaucratic backlog, as I have)
• Make use of, but don’t rely on Corporate programs and representatives (such as Jeep Cares). They can help, but only so much, and they are still an employee of the corporation supporting corporate interests, not your’s.
• Try to negotiate acceptable remedies early on. Once they have provided an offer they are either unable or unwilling to negotiate further.
• Do not assume that anyone who works for the manufacturer, dealer, arbitrator, etc. will tell you or document the truth.

I leveraged some of these in my process and still met sub-optimal results. I added tips learned the hard way that I think would have made my process faster and improved odd of a satisfactory result.

If any of you have tips or suggestions that could help someone who finds themselves in these situations, I think that collectively we can make navigating these processes easier for the community.

**Of note, FCA requires you sign an non-disclosure/ non-disparage agreement to complete a buyback, so those who have completed the buyback process will be unable to share all the details of there process, and are legally restricted from saying disparaging things about their experience or the FCA brand.

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[JTRDistraction]

First, I have no knowledge of the process, but it would be interesting to see the wording of the NDA. Second, I would think the buyback/NDA is a step before involving the government/lemon law process, but it may be different in each state. And third, I would personally do everything I can to not sign an NDA that would limit my speech/opinion of the whole situation, even if it would take more time to complete the transaction.

 

[Viper501]

Consult with a lawyer before you do anything with FCA, or any manufacturer, about a vehicle issue. Most places have folks who specialize in both consumer transactions and in “lemon law“ situations. If you need to know who to talk to most state’s bar associations have lawyer referral services run by the bar. Do not pay for those referrals off of some web site.

Do pay for a consultation with a lawyer to find out the law in your particular state and the process. It varies and internet research is worth what you pay for it. You may be spot on but you may also miss a lot of information that a lawyer will be able to educate you on. If you spend $600 to help recover your $60,000 it is money well spent.

If you are signing an NDA, you better be getting more value for that signature. In other words, you have an underlying claim they are paying to resolve. The NDA is something that only benefits them so make sure they pay extra for it. If you used the law, either by jury or arbitration, they aren’t going to get an NDA from a judge, or an arbiter. So get some value for it.

As an aside, a lot of NDA’s aren’t really worth the paper they are written on. But you don’t want to be the guinea pig.

 

[AnmiP]

For those who are interested, attached is a (redacted) copy of what the format of a buyback offer COULD look like.

For reference, the one that I looked at had a rate of about .51¢ per mile for the usage charge, regardless who (including service/dealer) racked up those miles. Maryland law allows up to 15% of purchase price for usage charges.

Edit for additional info:
FCA representatives stated that the release form is required for a buyback.

 

[Teqsand]

I did a buyback also, and had to sign the NDA.. BUT, that NDA was made under duress of not remedying my problem if i didnt sign it, so it's unenforceable

CP4 pump blew and was fixed (with a other of the problem pumps)
I got 100% of all expended monies back, no mileage charge, and a letter for employee pricing and push to the front of the line
ordered a loaded 23 JTRD last sept (included the adaptive cruise during the discontinued period)
took 10 days to build and ship and a month in shipping because it got rerouted to the east coast accidentally

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Try to negotiate acceptable remedies early on. Once they have provided an offer they are either unable or unwilling to negotiate further.

There's a lot of evidence against that. They'll try to cheap out early but it's not impossible for them to later bend once they see you are serious. It's like insurance - don't necessarily accept the first offer. That's the intimidation offer. Don't be intimidated as later offers may be better.
There's no way they are "unable" to negotiate further. That's just not right.
But if you prove your points early on with facts and figures, bullet points and no emotion at all, then their best offer may well come early.
I've refused first offers on a number of things and ended up with far better deals later once I threw more facts at them and showed I wasn't to be intimidated - and I knew more than their typical customer.

Do pay for a consultation with a lawyer to find out the law in your particular state and the process. It varies and internet research is worth what you pay for it. You may be spot on but you may also miss a lot of information that a lawyer will be able to educate you on. If you spend $600 to help recover your $60,000 it is money well spent.

Not always needed - normally YOUR state's laws are very clear and to the point. It's not rocket science. Go to your state's AG site (or your state's consumer advocate, however your state operates).
Not saying an attorney isn't a good thing - just that the laws are so simple and clear on this in most states (note the word "most") - an attorney may show the auto maker how serious you are.
Internet searches will give you the exact wording of your state's laws so it's a lot different than Google results where it's people "suggesting" things. You can in seconds pull up the exact wording - the exact copy of the laws.
Attorney = wise, but for different reasons, IMO. you get official letterhead, and a signature as opposed to your scribbles.
(I've written documents praised by a judge so I'd have no problem doing most of it myself and just pay for a simple hour consult in the beginning)

 

[AnmiP]

There's a lot of evidence against that. They'll try to cheap out early but it's not impossible for them to later bend once they see you are serious. It's like insurance - don't necessarily accept the first offer. That's the intimidation offer. Don't be intimidated as later offers may be better.
There's no way they are "unable" to negotiate further. That's just not right.
But if you prove your points early on with facts and figures, bullet points and no emotion at all, then their best offer may well come early.
I've refused first offers on a number of things and ended up with far better deals later once I threw more facts at them and showed I wasn't to be intimidated - and I knew more than their typical customer.

Good point; makes sense. Maybe I should reword that one to "The negotiation process is continual. Approach this with evidence, facts, and determination. Don't accept first offers if they are insufficient, but also don't wait until the end of the process to begin advocating for acceptable remedies." ??

 

[AnmiP]

I did a buyback also, and had to sign the NDA.. BUT, that NDA was made under duress of not remedying my problem if i didnt sign it, so it's unenforceable

CP4 pump blew and was fixed (with a other of the problem pumps)
I got 100% of all expended monies back, no mileage charge, and a letter for employee pricing and push to the front of the line
ordered a loaded 23 JTRD last sept (included the adaptive cruise during the discontinued period)
took 10 days to build and ship and a month in shipping because it got rerouted to the east coast accidentally

Nice! My buyback offer was for monies expenses at purchase, minus a mileage charge (of which a portion was driven by the dealer during the Mojave's 118 days of vacation at the service department). I didn't sign it; mostly because of the release wording, but also because It angers me to have paid loan payments, never offered a rental, and now to pay for usage for the months and mileage the dealer had possession of the Jeep (where most of the time it just sat on their lot... Shout-out to the Jeep app, gps, and Sirius Guardian for letting me observe that remotely) ?

 

[sharpsicle]

I did a buyback also, and had to sign the NDA.. BUT, that NDA was made under duress of not remedying my problem if i didnt sign it, so it's unenforceable

Unless there were threats against your safety or freedom while signing the document, I would think it would be tough the say it was made “under duress”. Simply saying A can’t happen until B is signed isn’t a “duress” situation, that’s just how contracts work. NDAs are extremely common and are executed all the time across virtually all businesses.

If you were always free to not sign at any time you probably can’t claim you were under duress.

 

[Teqsand]

Nice! My buyback offer was for monies expenses at purchase, minus a mileage charge (of which a portion was driven by the dealer during the Mojave's 118 days of vacation at the service department). I didn't sign it; mostly because of the release wording, but also because It angers me to have paid loan payments, never offered a rental, and now to pay for usage for the months and mileage the dealer had possession of the Jeep (where most of the time it just sat on their lot... Shout-out to the Jeep app, gps, and Sirius Guardian for letting me observe that remotely) ?

I guess I got lucky or was pissed off enough during the buyback that they waived the mileage fees.... I offered to keep it but they only offered me 3k cash, screw that, cost them 5k alone to reimburse my calif reg/tax.
I did have a rental provided for the near 2 months it was waiting for parts....

only change I made on the new order was from hydro blue to white, black to tan leather.... like this one better and it no longer matches the wifes 21 JLURD

.

 

[Teqsand]

Unless there were threats against your safety or freedom while signing the document, I would think it would be tough the say it was made “under duress”. Simply saying A can’t happen until B is signed isn’t a “duress” situation, that’s just how contracts work.

If you were always free to not sign at any time you probably can’t claim you were under duress.

Duress is not limited to physical threat, if can be a psychological threat of action or inaction also... if you don't sign, they don't buy back, if they don't buy back you are either stuck with the lemon or have to hire a lawyer, be out of pocket for that and for transportation to replace what you lost.... so yes, that is duress to sign

 

[sharpsicle]

Let's not cross lines here. This part is true:

Duress is not limited to physical threat, if can be a psychological threat of action or inaction also...

But what you're describing here is just how contract execution works. It's not duress.

if you don't sign, they don't buy back, if they don't buy back you are either stuck with the lemon or have to hire a lawyer, be out of pocket for that and for transportation to replace what you lost

There's no threat against you here, and nothing illegitimate is occurring forcing you to sign and overriding your own intent. You need those elements to claim duress. Rather, you are accepting an offer as presented freely. You were always free to not accept said offer and terms and pursue other avenues. Being unhappy you signed something is not duress.

"They locked the door and wouldn't let me leave until I signed" would be duress. "They wouldn't execute the agreement until I signed it in full" is not.

Not trying to start an argument. Just want to let those reading know that the buyback process and associated NDA are completely normal, and are enforceable.

 

[Teqsand]

Not trying to start an argument. Just want to let those reading know that the buyback process and associated NDA are completely normal, and are enforceable.

If the first part I post is true as you said, then where does it become untrue? When does it cease to be a form of coercion to sign?

And "you" just wanting to let people "know" they are enforceable is fine, but for this to be accepted, we need to know your legal qualifications to make that statement and have it accepted as fact... if you're a lawyer that's awesome...

 

[sharpsicle]

If the first part I post is true as you said, then where does it become untrue? When does it cease to be a form of coercion to sign?

And "you" just wanting to let people "know" they are enforceable is fine, but for this to be accepted, we need to know your legal qualifications to make that statement and have it accepted as fact... if you're a lawyer that's awesome...

At what point did you refuse to sign the agreement and/or NDA, and they forced you to? What tactics were used to override your refusal to sign?

You knew to get A you had to sign B, so you chose to sign B. You didn't like B, but that's irrelevant to it being enforceable. You then received A as an equitable result. This is pretty much the definition of a two-party contract.

At this point I'd rather not flood this thread with these posts. I'm sorry you don't like the fact you signed an NDA during the buyback process, but that doesn't make it unenforceable. Let's move on.

 

[Teqsand]

At what point did you refuse to sign the agreement and/or NDA, and they forced you to? What tactics were used to override your refusal to sign?

You knew to get A you had to sign B, so you chose to sign B. You didn't like B, but that's irrelevant to it being enforceable. This is the definition of a two-party contract.

In order for party A (customer) to receive remedy of a financial harm caused by party B (seller), party A is required to sign an NDA or be denied remedy from party B .
What you leave out is the initial contract of make right warranty, party B will not honor that unless party A agrees to new terms (nda).... that's coercion and coercion is duress

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