Longevity idea

[biodiesel]

I’m not arguing against diesel engines. I really do love them but the emissions requirements limit them to a much more narrow use that before 2008.

True, but I'd rather have a 2020 Cummins (DEF) than a 2010 Cummins (No-DEF). The idling issue was a bigger problem in 2010.

I am strongly considering a diesel Wrangler as my daily driver because I have accepted a job working for the Department of Defense that will require a 1 hour commute each way. That drive makes an ecodiesel an almost perfect engine for my needs.

The EcoDiesel would be great for fuel mileage and longevity. My wife will be ordering a Wrangler EcoDiesel in 2020. She's looking forward to it.

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[WXman]

I think the issue with idling a new diesel engine is two fold. First, you're not getting the emissions components in the exhaust hot enough, so this is when DEF usage is at its highest. But it can still lead to issues. Secondly, idling can create a fuel wash issue in the cylinders and then you end up with engine oil that's diluted with diesel fuel. If you then try to do long oil change intervals, which a lot of guys do, the result is less lubrication and faster wear of internals.

This is why even the owners manual specifically states NOT to idle the engine for extended periods of time. One could argue that slow speed off road use in a Wrangler or Gladiator would essentially create the same issues.

 

[biodiesel]

So those articles written in 2018 and 2016 are discussing the performance of engines with DEF.

Not one of those articles mentions DEF/SCR.

For SCR to be effective EGT has to be high enough to inactivate the EGR. At low EGT the SCR is ineffective so EGR must be used to control NOx. What is factually incorrect about anything I have stated? If I am interpreting to research wrong I’m a big enough man to change my thinking. But I’m pretty sure I understand the emission systems quite well.

I'm saying that the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel, Wrangler EcoDiesel, and Gladiator EcoDiesel are not 2500/3500/4500/5500 trucks nor are their emission requirements the same. The tuning is completely different on "passenger vehicles". The Ram 1500 and Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel, as a whole, do not have DPF issues. And one way to improve (or reduce) regens, is to use Hot Shot's Secret Diesel Extreme. On new diesel engines, the DEF is designed so the EGR function isn't as extreme. You can 'delete' (disable) the EGR on the EcoDiesel and keep the SCR/DEF system active and pass emissions.

 

[TennesseePA]

The DEF system is a great application and I think is is a huge upgrade over the 2008-10 engines. The reason it doesn’t help with low speed operation is it requires a higher EGT to be effective.

At higher EGT the EGR valve will stop injecting exhaust into the intake to lower NOx and the SCR will take over. In the attached link there are several equations but one is more important than the others for the sake of this discussion.

If you look at equation 2 you will notice that there is excess O2 in the exhaust stream. That is because the emission system has stopped EGR and is allowing the fuel to be fully consumed during combustion like I mentioned earlier. This results in much less soot accumulation in the DPF but it requires much higher exhaust gas temperatures that you can get during low speed operation. That is addressed at the very end of the article where it mentions that NH3 is almost 100% consumed at 427C (800F). At lower temps we get NH3 leaking into the atmosphere or even worse we create explosive ammonium nitrate. And finally it talked about at temps below 250C the sulfur in the diesel, even VLSD, reacts with the ammonia and deactivates the catalyst in the SCR system.

https://dieselnet.com/tech/cat_scr.php

And here is an article that explains how and when the emissions systems were implemented.

https://otrperformance.com/pages/egr-dpf-scr

 

[biodiesel]

One could argue that slow speed off road use in a Wrangler or Gladiator would essentially create the same issues.

The gen 3 engine is new, so we won't know what to expect until they have been out for 3 - 4 years. Many of us who own a 2014 - 2019 Ram EcoDiesel and/or Jeep Cherokee EcoDiesel idle our engines, drive off-road at low speeds, etc. We are not experiencing any DPF problems.

I live at high altitude with many single digit mornings (sometimes below 0 temps). I let my truck idle every morning for at least 5 minutes before I drive 2 miles to work. That's right! Only two miles! And I've been doing that since I bought the truck NEW! I also work my truck hard by doing a lot of towing, letting it idle while hooking up trailers, let it idle when dumping the dump trailer, letting it idle while filling up with fuel, etc. Regenerations happen whether you're on the highway or parked at idle.

I also change my oil at 6,000 - 6,500 mile intervals, mainly because I do a lot of short distance driving, a lot of towing, and I run a minimum of B5 in every tank.

 

[TennesseePA]

I think the issue with idling a new diesel engine is two fold. First, you're not getting the emissions components in the exhaust hot enough, so this is when DEF usage is at its highest. But it can still lead to issues. Secondly, idling can create a fuel wash issue in the cylinders and then you end up with engine oil that's diluted with diesel fuel. If you then try to do long oil change intervals, which a lot of guys do, the result is less lubrication and faster wear of internals.

This is why even the owners manual specifically states NOT to idle the engine for extended periods of time. One could argue that slow speed off road use in a Wrangler or Gladiator would essentially create the same issues.

That is a little backwards. At low temperatures the SCR actually creates pollution so it is deactivated and EGR takes over.

And second one is arguing that very thing right now.

 

[TennesseePA]

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100SMQA.PDF?Dockey=P100SMQA.PDF

There is only one standard for passenger vehicles. In the real world our 2500-5500 vehicles are light or medium duty.

 

[TennesseePA]

The gen 3 engine is new, so we won't know what to expect until they have been out for 3 - 4 years. Many of us who own a 2014 - 2019 Ram EcoDiesel and/or Jeep Cherokee EcoDiesel idle our engines, drive off-road at low speeds, etc. We are not experiencing any DPF problems.

I live at high altitude with many single digit mornings (sometimes below 0 temps). I let my truck idle every morning for at least 5 minutes before I drive 2 miles to work. That's right! Only two miles! And I've been doing that since I bought the truck NEW! I also work my truck hard by doing a lot of towing, letting it idle while hooking up trailers, let it idle when dumping the dump trailer, letting it idle while filling up with fuel, etc. Regenerations happen whether you're on the highway or parked at idle.

I also change my oil at 6,000 - 6,500 mile intervals, mainly because I do a lot of short distance driving, a lot of towing, and I run a minimum of B5 in every tank.

Aren’t you hamstringing your own argument when you say you work your truck hard? Try doing an experiment where you only idle for 5 minutes and drive two miles and shut it down for 90 to 180 days without working it hard and get back to me. The engine obviously works for you but many to most people will never work an engine hard. Which is what I am saying in a nutshell with a bow and cherry on top.

 

[TennesseePA]

And with that I’ll say good night gentlemen we can continue the conversation tomorrow after I celebrate the resurrection of my Lord with my family. Happy Easter everyone!

 

[biodiesel]

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100SMQA.PDF?Dockey=P100SMQA.PDF

There is only one standard for passenger vehicles. In the real world our 2500-5500 vehicles are light or medium duty.

They all have to meet or exceed tier four emissions standards, but the tuning is completely different. The EGR function is highly minimized on the Cummins, which is why the oil doesn't get black right away like it does on the EcoDiesel.

 

[biodiesel]

Aren’t you hamstringing your own argument when you say you work your truck hard? Try doing an experiment where you only idle for 5 minutes and drive two miles and shut it down for 90 to 180 days without working it hard and get back to me. The engine obviously works for you but many to most people will never work an engine hard. Which is what I am saying in a nutshell with a bow and cherry on top.

The point is that there aren't DPF issues under the driving conditions that you are describing. That's the argument that I'm making. I don't think working the truck hard is helping the DPF. I'm making more soot by working my truck hard. As a matter of fact, the Hot Shot who had a clogged DPF was towing all the time. Thankfully, he was able to restore it by using Diesel Extreme. Read this article, I think it will help you see that maintaining the emissions system is more important than how you drive, which was my original thought. https://www.hotshotsecret.com/blog/how-edt-and-diesel-extreme-can-correct-dpf-and-regen-issues/

 

[TennesseePA]

The point is that there aren't DPF issues under the driving conditions that you are describing. That's the argument that I'm making. I don't think working the truck hard is helping the DPF. I'm making more soot by working my truck hard. As a matter of fact, the Hot Shot who had a clogged DPF was towing all the time. Thankfully, he was able to restore it by using Diesel Extreme. Read this article, I think it will help you see that maintaining the emissions system is more important than how you drive, which was my original thought. https://www.hotshotsecret.com/blog/how-edt-and-diesel-extreme-can-correct-dpf-and-regen-issues/

I’m convinced now that you haven’t read anything that I have said or any of the industry research I have posted. Your understanding of modern diesel emission systems and how the diesel combustion process works. Please go back and read all of the research I posted. I even included the chemistry of SCR and why it doesn’t work at low EGT and WHY RUNNING AN ENGINE HARD REDUCES SOOT BECAUSE OF COMPLETE COMBUSTION OF THE FUEL.

 

[biodiesel]

I’m convinced now that you haven’t read anything that I have said or any of the industry research I have posted. Your understanding of modern diesel emission systems and how the diesel combustion process works. Please go back and read all of the research I posted. I even included the chemistry of SCR and why it doesn’t work at low EGT and WHY RUNNING AN ENGINE HARD REDUCES SOOT BECAUSE OF COMPLETE COMBUSTION OF THE FUEL.

I'm familiar with the research you posted, but that research is not based on the tuning of the EcoDiesel. I'm trying to stick to the original discussion that was based around your claim that DPF systems fail prematurely under the driving conditions that you suggest. I'm here to say, that's not what the real-world driving experience is telling us. Maintaining your fuel system, however, is the key. Here's a good video that further explains it.

 

[TennesseePA]

Can you cite some research reinforcing your position? Also please explain how that stuff helps preserve the after treatment system? I’m not saying it doesn’t work but the logic escapes me.

I’m not trying to argue with you and I hope that is not how you are perceiving my comments. Knowledge is power and the more we have the better we are. As a man in a science related career we have to change how we think about things often. But to change our thinking we need evidence (evidence based medicine) to change our approach. Please point me to some literature so that I can do my own research and learn more about the system and process.

 

[PapaHepcat]

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m just glad you guys are arguing about something OTHER than whether people should be staying home vs being told what to do, like I see everywhere else. So, thanks!

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