Went shopping yesterday - holy interest rates Batman

[BourbonRunner]

I think the reason the Bronco Sport is objectively more suited for comparison against the Renegade is because the Cherokee model occupies its own space. It was the 4-door, unibody, smaller 4x4 that came about because of the late 70s energy crisis. And it was marketed completely separately from the CJ or YJ, and still is to this day. The difference in the 2 models is quite deliberate and always has been. This is the opposite of what Ford did with the Bronco Sport. Ford made a smaller, less capable unibody that would ride the wave of the Bronco name. Jeep made a smaller, less capable unibody that would ride the wave of the Renegade name (which is a pretty universally well known Wrangler trim level). So, when you look at it from that perspective, I think it’s a fair comparison.

Thanks for the history lesson but the roots of the Cherokee really don't have any bearing on today's market. I also doubt that most current Renegade buyers have any clue there was a Wrangler package for a few years in the 1990s that got funny fenders and different lights also called Renegade.

To your other point: Jeep also has relied heavily on the nameplate and the Jeep image to sell another crossover. Case in point- the outgoing Cherokee is based on a passenger car platform that it shares with a minivan and a hatchback amongst other... Not to mention that they revived the Cherokee name because the Liberty's were so... forgettable.

So we're clear: before driving it we both liked the Cherokee Trailhawk. It crossed a lot of boxes for us. To the point that we drove an hour to test drive a Trailhawk. She loves Jeeps and has fond memories of her first car, a ZJ. The Cherokee looks better than most in its class.

It was, however, aside from UConnect an underwhelming also-ran. It didn't accelerate well, it didn't handle well, and it was ho-hum. It was about as exciting to drive as a RAV4. (another option we considered).

I'm not denying that the BS is certainly trading on the full size name and reputation. Ford does have a history of making two lines of Broncos though- Bronco II's were sold alongside their bigger brothers way back when.

The BS/Cherokee/Compass/RAV4/CRV/Escape compete against each other in both size and price point in the compact CUV/SUV platform.

The Renegade is a smaller sub compact platform, competing against the Crosstrek/HRV/Kona/Trax. And for the money, I'd do a CrossTrek again over a Renegade.

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[ShadowsPapa]

I need to edit that: I was specifically talking about the XJ.

I know a lot of people hear different things, but I was at a convention- I can't remember which- several years ago where Dave Yegge, to answer an off-topic question, mentioned that the 1979 energy crisis was one of the driving factors for the XJ, and I'm pretty sure it was referred to as a Sport Utility Vehicle, at least retroactively, by Jeep.

The below link also confirms this. Not saying both things aren't true, just that in 45 years a lot of information may have been blended.
https://www.jeep.com/history/1980s.html

It was only later - in historical stories like that, they they referred to it as an SUV. There really wasn't such a term. I collect AMC history, marketing papers, order guides and so on. None of their advertising or marketing said SUV.

I suspect that the historical docs I have and books on the development of the Eagle and Jeep of that era may read a bit differently than their current web site. Iacocca ordered a lot of stuff trashed - into the dumpsters, he said - sheet metal and all. Into the dumpsters. So it's likely there's little in the hands of Jeep execs today - it's in the hands of people like me, collectors, those who have the original stuff grabbed from dealerships closed in the 1980s. Iacocca lied about so many parts of the deal. I'm not a fan and most AMC people wouldn't be.

The shift on the fly system they talk of comes from Eagle. It was a New Process transfer case. The shift system went through multiple iterations in the 1980s as AMC found that it wasn't that much savings going to 2 wheel drive only and doing a full disconnect vs. the cost of the axle (a 35)
XJ and Eagle share very similar front hubs - on fact a lot of Eagle people have converted fairly easily over to Jeep front hubs because you can still buy those (Kelsey-Hayes, made in Romulus)

At one of the AMO conventions, they had one of the chief design engineers give a talk about the 80s when Iacocca raped and pillaged AMC and what he heard while all of this was going on - Lee wanted the Grand Cherokee - didn't give a rip about most of the rest. He wanted the upcoming Grand Cherokee. (I talked with the engineer later and got copies of the original artwork Pierre Cardin submitted to AMC for use in the PC Javelin and AMX. Wish I would have spent the money and bought the guy's books and shirts as he died not long after that)

As to other - yes, the history does play a part in what sells today - or not sells.
Many who owned a Liberty liked them. Ours was a great little Jeep - capable, easy to park, got us through some really super-nasty winters and only had one issue - the HVAC fan resistor (but what vehicle that used that system didn't have trouble)
I don't agree that the new Cherokee came about using that name because Liberty was forgettable. It was a totally totally different vehicle. Not even close. Why come up with a modern version of the Cherokee - and give it any other name? It would be like Ford not calling a modern Mustang a Mustang.
The last gen Cherokee was an updated, modernized Cherokee and nothing else. So it follows that it have the Cherokee name.
I've seen the drawings of some of the old AMC and Jeep engineers who gave their concept of a modern AMX or Modern whatever - and interesting enough, if they had drawn a modern Cherokee - it would look like the modern Cherokee! It's interesting how automotive design engineers parallel what has really happened with names like Cherokee.
Cherokee is rightly named because it's the 2020s version of the 1980s vehicle, and nothing else.
I'd bet that if those former design engineers drew a modern Cherokee, having never see one, their concept would closely match what happened in reality.

 

[Sandevino]

My daughters both had 2022 Renegades and loved them.

One dropped an injector at 2000 miles, the other had electrical gremlins and both were reliability nightmares.

They were gone in six months.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My daughters both had 2022 Renegades and loved them.

One dropped an injector at 2000 miles, the other had electrical gremlins and both were reliability nightmares.

They were gone in six months.

I read an article last night about what people are reporting with J. D. Powers - and guess what - pretty much any vehicle is being reported like you mentioned.
Reliability nightmares, biggest issues are electrical and electronic and in general, they report the initial quality of all vehicles has fallen. Terms like clown car, cheap, etc are being used almost across the board.
It's the state of vehicles today.

 

[Sandevino]

I read an article last night about what people are reporting with J. D. Powers - and guess what - pretty much any vehicle is being reported like you mentioned.
Reliability nightmares, biggest issues are electrical and electronic and in general, they report the initial quality of all vehicles has fallen. Terms like clown car, cheap, etc are being used almost across the board.
It's the state of vehicles today.

What I didn’t mention is the service experience. This was excellent and the dealer resolved all issues as quickly as possible given the circumstances.

 

[atrizzy]

Guess you didn't live through the Carter and Ford years (not blaming them, just throwing out the time period)
Act or implode (not referring to any recent events, either)

I was just stating a fact. I'm quite in favor of the latest interest rate policies.

Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I was just stating a fact. I'm quite in favor of the latest interest rate policies.

Sorry for getting off topic.

Gotcha..........

 

[Hootbro]

Nobody that buys a today's Bronco Sport or Renegade is getting hoodwinked by the name and expecting something of the past to shine through it. If they do, they are special kind of stupid.

Model name recycling is about as old of a marketing trick there is in getting people to look at something.

 

[High Alextude]

I’m a fan of paying down extra on your principal as much as you can, as fast as you can. If you’re budgeting correctly on what your car payment will be per month, you should have extra funds to put down every month (as well as into savings). I understand that is not everyone’s situation, but that’s what I would recommend to save on interest.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Nobody that buys a today's Bronco Sport or Renegade is getting hoodwinked by the name and expecting something of the past to shine through it. If they do, they are special kind of stupid.

Model name recycling is about as old of a marketing trick there is in getting people to look at something.

Dodge Hornet, anyone?

1977 Hornet hatchback -

this white one had a hood-size decal of an angry hornet on the hood.

The original 1970 Hornet -

SC 360 version -

So I'm frankly a bit sad to see mother MOPAR resurrect the name with their own version.
The Hornet wagon, the Sportabout, was the coolest looking wagon ever made, IMO.

I wonder why Chrysler didn't sue Nissan over the Rogue name since they technically should own that name having bought AMC.

 

[Summitsearcher]

Thanks for the history lesson but the roots of the Cherokee really don't have any bearing on today's market. I also doubt that most current Renegade buyers have any clue there was a Wrangler package for a few years in the 1990s that got funny fenders and different lights also called Renegade.

To your other point: Jeep also has relied heavily on the nameplate and the Jeep image to sell another crossover. Case in point- the outgoing Cherokee is based on a passenger car platform that it shares with a minivan and a hatchback amongst other... Not to mention that they revived the Cherokee name because the Liberty's were so... forgettable.

So we're clear: before driving it we both liked the Cherokee Trailhawk. It crossed a lot of boxes for us. To the point that we drove an hour to test drive a Trailhawk. She loves Jeeps and has fond memories of her first car, a ZJ. The Cherokee looks better than most in its class.

It was, however, aside from UConnect an underwhelming also-ran. It didn't accelerate well, it didn't handle well, and it was ho-hum. It was about as exciting to drive as a RAV4. (another option we considered).

I'm not denying that the BS is certainly trading on the full size name and reputation. Ford does have a history of making two lines of Broncos though- Bronco II's were sold alongside their bigger brothers way back when.

The BS/Cherokee/Compass/RAV4/CRV/Escape compete against each other in both size and price point in the compact CUV/SUV platform.

The Renegade is a smaller sub compact platform, competing against the Crosstrek/HRV/Kona/Trax. And for the money, I'd do a CrossTrek again over a Renegade.

My sister loves her CrossTrek

 

[ShadowsPapa]

My sister loves her CrossTrek

And isn't that what matters?

 

[Summitsearcher]

And isn't that what matters?

Yep ?

 

[AmosMoses]

Speaking of Carter, I heard there was a "misery index" in the late 70's to measure the mood of Americans. Things must have been pretty bad. I was just being born but I know mortgage rates were higher back then.

 

[BourbonRunner]

My sister loves her CrossTrek

And that is all that matters. Ours has been a decent if not woefully underpowered vehicle. Basic transportation, capable, good MPG, safe, and reliable. We looked seriously at a Forester and Outback but she loved the BS more.

Speaking of Carter, I heard there was a "misery index" in the late 70's to measure the mood of Americans. Things must have been pretty bad. I was just being born but I know mortgage rates were higher back then.

Yes, there was. This current situation mimics much of what we saw in the Nixon-Ford-Carter era at many levels. Without politicizing the thread and risking a lock: On both the domestic and international stage we have very interesting corollaries.

IN the last booming real estate market (up to the bust in 2007/08) the typical rates were in the 7-8% range. We're right on the average for 40 years. Difference is we had artificially low rates for a very long time and consumers got drunk on them. Banks and other financial institutions too.

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