Thieves Use Proximity Key Fob Relays to Gain Access.

[NachoRuby]

Gas caps and hood locks aside, the primary issue now is if Jeep will fix the fob (like Ford as the article claimed is doing)...

I think we already have the same security system as Dodge does, so the answer is they are, or were working on it, to address the large number of Hellcat thefts.

https://www.dodgegarage.com/news/ar...nces-three-new-theft-protection-measures.html

Or maybe not... Only applies to hemi challengers and chargers. Maybe we can get some trickle down. But then, maybe jeep already has updated things. Do we know for sure that jeeps are susceptible?

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[ShadowsPapa]

So by your logic, you should be very happy they can now steel your Truck so easily with the Stupid-Fob implimentation. Obviously, I don't agree.

Of course a determined thief with enough skill and enough time can steal just about anything, it would be foolish however if we didn't try to stop the less skilled and less determined thief - which makes up most of the thief population..

Big difference between locking gas cap and these fobs and the electronics.
The gas cap stops no one these days. Even the unskilled. You have to at least do some work, and be fairly smart, to steal the vehicle.
If I told my son, a very non-mechanically inclined person, but very high-tech, to go steal gas out of 5 cars and I don't care how you do it, he'd get it done - either by removing cap and using a pump, or, by using a catch basin like used for oil changes and knocking a hole in the tank.
It's so easy, go to walmart, buy one of those $12-$15 buck oil change containers, and you can make some money fast. Hole in tank, gas drains into container, insert plug, carry container away. You can make your own, big or small. Any teen can do it.
It is apples and oranges trying to compare things like hood locks and locking gas caps to a fob system.
Hmmm, the more I think of it - I don't dare challenge my son to steal my JT - he could do it. He programs rasberry pi and has come up with some cool ideas. He's taught his 8 year old son to program already. I bet he could do it. He likely has some of the stuff on hand already, knowing the tech geek that he is.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I know you think I'm a jeep fanboy. But I'm really a VW and Subaru fanboy who owns jeeps too haha. I just like overcomplicated unreliable things. Also a joke haha.

I am a fan of cars, and trucks, all sorts. I love things mechanical. I also prefer not to spend life worrying about what could be, who can do what and living in a castle with a moat and electric fences and security guards who are ex-seals and keep my truck in a hermetically sealed mayonnaise jar in Funk and Wagnells doorstep, never getting to enjoy it, always paranoid about it getting stolen.
If we worry about every thing that can be, we don't get to enjoy what is.

Think of the millions of Americans who never have anything stolen, nothing broken into. Think of the numbers of vehicle thefts compared to those NOT stolen.
I have much greater concerns, things insurance can't or won't cover, than if a vehicle COULD be stolen by technology, and playing "what-if" -
If it's stolen, it's stolen. I'll be pissed, yeah, probably giving every local LEO hell until it's found, or insurance pays up - and in the mean-time, I'm adding to blood pressure, nerve health problems, and losing site of what's really important, and what can't possibly be replaced at any cost, ever.

 

[joeym7]

Big difference between locking gas cap and these fobs and the electronics.
The gas cap stops no one these days. Even the unskilled. You have to at least do some work, and be fairly smart, to steal the vehicle.
If I told my son, a very non-mechanically inclined person, but very high-tech, to go steal gas out of 5 cars and I don't care how you do it, he'd get it done - either by removing cap and using a pump, or, by using a catch basin like used for oil changes and knocking a hole in the tank.
It's so easy, go to walmart, buy one of those $12-$15 buck oil change containers, and you can make some money fast. Hole in tank, gas drains into container, insert plug, carry container away. You can make your own, big or small. Any teen can do it.
It is apples and oranges trying to compare things like hood locks and locking gas caps to a fob system.
Hmmm, the more I think of it - I don't dare challenge my son to steal my JT - he could do it. He programs rasberry pi and has come up with some cool ideas. He's taught his 8 year old son to program already. I bet he could do it. He likely has some of the stuff on hand already, knowing the tech geek that he is.

Meh, yea apples and oranges in magnitude, but very alike in what they are doing - stealing from you...

By your process, why would you ever lock your vehicle? "If they want to get in they will". Just leave the doors open wherever you go and let them rummage through your stuff, wth, better then them breaking the window.

And the gas cap, who cares if they steel my gas - 100$ most. But what if they stick crap down into your gas tank.

And your point about the millions who don't get stolen from which we can add to: or fires, or collisions, is an interesting one also. Sound like you don't buy any kind of insurance for your JT.

It is a faulty mindset, imho...But hey, I have no quarrel with you if you don't want a locking hood. But jeep should have it as a paid upgrade, wth, I had to pay extra for my roof - LOL.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

They have to leave something for the mega-dollar catalog vendors to supply for the after-market.

If they break a window - it's insurance. If I leave it unlocked, then I'm not covered because I left it unlocked.
Kids rummaging through vehicles are less likely to break in for an unknown.
Thieves going after gas have a goal, a known item, it's there, they know the value. Time well spent on their end compared to breaking a window for what may be, but usually isn't.

I spent a lot of study time on how the minds work on that - it was IT related but it's the same mindset. Bang for the buck. It's why in the early days even though IE was technically more secure, more bad actors went after that browser than Chrome. They knew at that time IE was on 3/4 of all computers while Chrome, at the time much less secure, was less common. How much can be done quickly, knowns vs. unknowns. There are other, newer, examples, but for a long time, that was a big training thing - how many can you hit, and gain from, in a given time, or do you spend time trying, breaking in, for unknowns.
Do you target what you know you can get, or is a safe bet, or go after what could be but likely isn't.
Psychology. It's not perfect, there are those who go along and bust windshields and windows just to see how many they can do, no monetary gain at all.

I do what i can and try not to sweat the rest.

Locking the truck will stop opportunists, locking the gas cap won't really do any good these days.

 

[joeym7]

Well, I guess it is just a matter of perspective, I don't know anyone who has had gas stolen from their vehicles since the 70's shortage...I do know people who have had crap put down their gas tank more recently than that. Our experiences and where we lived in the past and present shape our decisions...And I would wager, most people who put locking gas caps on their cars, trucks, or motorcycles do it for the latter reason.

 

[AmosMoses01]

They have to leave something for the mega-dollar catalog vendors to supply for the after-market.

If they break a window - it's insurance. If I leave it unlocked, then I'm not covered because I left it unlocked.
Kids rummaging through vehicles are less likely to break in for an unknown.
Thieves going after gas have a goal, a known item, it's there, they know the value. Time well spent on their end compared to breaking a window for what may be, but usually isn't.

I spent a lot of study time on how the minds work on that - it was IT related but it's the same mindset. Bang for the buck. It's why in the early days even though IE was technically more secure, more bad actors went after that browser than Chrome. They knew at that time IE was on 3/4 of all computers while Chrome, at the time much less secure, was less common. How much can be done quickly, knowns vs. unknowns. There are other, newer, examples, but for a long time, that was a big training thing - how many can you hit, and gain from, in a given time, or do you spend time trying, breaking in, for unknowns.
Do you target what you know you can get, or is a safe bet, or go after what could be but likely isn't.
Psychology. It's not perfect, there are those who go along and bust windshields and windows just to see how many they can do, no monetary gain at all.

I do what i can and try not to sweat the rest.

Locking the truck will stop opportunists, locking the gas cap won't really do any good these days.

Yup - agree with your take. It all ends up to being what level of effort a thief is willing to undertake to steal, balanced with the level of inconvienence we're willing to deal with on a daily basis. I got the locking caps for my JT and my wife's JLU (ya'll are dang right, they're way over priced) because there was a run in our neighborhood on folks siphoning using those tranfer hoses. Doorbell videos showed it looked like teenagers. I don't think they were ever caught, enough news coverage w/posted videos I guess spooked them so the incidents died off after a few weeks. That being said, there were no incidents of the folks whe were popping holes in the gas tanks by us. For me, it isn't a big deal to unlock the cap, but I get that it would be annoying to others.

I switched mindsets on keeping valuables in a vehicle when I got my first canvas top Wrangler decades ago - locking just made a thief cut the top, so why lock it up and risk that? Don't leave bait for them, and barring malicious vandals, they'll not find anything interesting and scurry away. I would lock my hard top Miata, but not the soft top one I had later for the same reason.

Everything is a balance of choice in the end. It is annoying that poor design decisions were made, but the way our fender / wheel flare gap is designed annoys me way more than the FOB thing.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I got the locking caps for my JT and my wife's JLU (ya'll are dang right, they're way over priced) because there was a run in our neighborhood on folks siphoning using those tranfer hoses.

You took aim at a specific problem - siphoning.
My wife's Grand Cherokee is a capless system, fuel door opened by button inside, but a big screwdriver would pry it open pretty easily. It's not a secure system. I bet a stout pocket knife would pry it open.
If there's an issue in our area where it's shown there was siphoning, then there's a target to aim at, a specific problem. Use a locking cap while the problem persists, switch back later (but many say these prices are designed to stay high, so gas will always be 4 to 5 bucks a gallon if not more)
Maybe I should lock the refrigerator - milk is $4.50/gallon and rising.

I thought those transfer pumps and hoses you see on those cheap TV commercials were a joke, worthless, wouldn't REALLY work like shown on TV until I went through my father's garage after he died and found 2 different versions............ and dang, they work great! One is a crank type - slow but gets the job done and the hose will go almost anywhere, the other is electric and I've used it on gas, and even to drain my plating tanks of chemicals for cleaning. Fast, quiet, easy. No one has to suck on the end of a garden hose to siphon gas any more.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Well, I guess it is just a matter of perspective, I don't know anyone who has had gas stolen from their vehicles since the 70's shortage...I do know people who have had crap put down their gas tank more recently than that. Our experiences and where we lived in the past and present shape our decisions...And I would wager, most people who put locking gas caps on their cars, trucks, or motorcycles do it for the latter reason.

Must be an east coast thing. I've never known anyone personally who has had stuff put into the tank, my years as a mechanic, I never saw or worked on a vehicle that has crap put into the gas tank....... but there's been fuel thefts. Farm areas are easy targets for that and like I said earlier, my wife said her friends reported a number of gas thefts in their own area. On the other hand, most people around me own guns, so maybe the thieves know better. I heard a couple of neighbors practicing for an hour or so yesterday.

 

[joeym7]

Must be an east coast thing. I've never known anyone personally who has had stuff put into the tank, my years as a mechanic, I never saw or worked on a vehicle that has crap put into the gas tank....... but there's been fuel thefts. Farm areas are easy targets for that and like I said earlier, my wife said her friends reported a number of gas thefts in their own area. On the other hand, most people around me own guns, so maybe the thieves know better. I heard a couple of neighbors practicing for an hour or so yesterday.

Sticking something in a person's gas tank is either an act of spite, jealousy, wonton-mischief to get a "kick" and is driven by different motive than straight up stealing gas for personal gain or profit...Generally, not always, the key environment it happens in is tight quarters where people live very close to each other. Have a little disagreement with a wacky neighbor, or maybe the neighborhood semi-thugs had too much to drink, some people do these things. It is not an east cost thing, it can happen in any crowded environment in any city and many other places.

I can see that your opinion of gas caps is shaped by the thugs puncturing the tank. Maybe that is a farm-land thing because I've never seen that in environments I've lived in all my life. Even if it was endemic in my neighborhood (which it isn't), I'd find another solution rather than inviting people to take the gas out of my truck via syphoning. Last thing I would do is assist a thug stealing.

But hay, we beat the gas cap to death, if you don't want a locking gas cape given your life experiences, and current circumstances, have at it. To each his own, I have no issue with your decision. I only have issue with people who think their decision is best for everyone else. Jeep should have it as an option so everyone can be happy. Same with the hood lock.

It seems we have common ground with the fob though, and that is what the thread is mainly about. So lets get back to it (given we've given gas caps way more attention then they deserve in (this) thread).

 

[Kilroy1941]

Me hanging half out the window while they set off all the motion lights.

 

[Terry]

That's fine and dandy for when your vehicle is parked at home. But when you are out away from home and need to unlock the car/truck......... they've still got ya. You can't unlock and drive it with the fob wrapped in foil.
Using a fob condom is only going to work when you park and store the fob in your house.

I don't think so.... A fob rap will protect your RFI info no matter where you are as long as it surrounds your fob. I don't believe people are following us around seeking to get your RFI code during the three seconds it takes you pull it out to open your vehicle. it's a matter of situational awareness. If you are aware of who is around you, I believe you are safe. Just so the thieves are aware..... I don't hover, cover, or skulk when I am entering my super secret, PIN numbers either.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I don't think so.... A fob rap will protect your RFI info no matter where you are as long as it surrounds your fob. I don't believe people are following us around seeking to get your RFI code during the three seconds it takes you pull it out to open your vehicle. it's a matter of situational awareness. If you are aware of who is around you, I believe you are safe. Just so the thieves are aware..... I don't hover, cover, or skulk when I am entering my super secret, PIN numbers either.

They'll have it as soon as you uncover and press that button - or uncover to unlock with the passive entry. They don't have to pull a trigger when you do. They could be sitting in a car near yours.
When you uncover the fob or press a button, they have the signal.

I don't disagree that situational awareness is key to many things, including this.
My point is, you have to uncover the fob, press the button, and the signal gets out. It's exactly the same either way - they are capturing the signal when you press the button.
Press button - signal is captured
Uncover fob so it will work, press button, signal is captured. It's the button press signal they are capturing in those instances.
The same button is pressed, the same button press signal is captured, no difference.
They are catching the button press signal sent to the truck. and since it can only get through with the fob uncovered, they've got it either way.
Check the first post about capturing button press signals. A wrap won't stop that.
And yes, when you press that button, they have it all. No trigger to pull on their part. They simply wait until they receive the signal.

 

[joeym7]

At home I'll put mine in a F-Box. Very unlikely its will happen here but it is easy insurance....I already lost one FOB for 2 days lol, found it after constant searching in my house, so in the F-Box I will never loose it.

Out and about, when get out of the car, stick it in the F-bag (they are small) after locking the G....

The above process will lower the risk enormously.

Most of the theft is the dirt bags coming near your home at night and sniffing your fob...Second most is following you closely in a parking lot or store...The above system eliminates these.

Yea if they are sitting in car next to G. when you take it out of the pouch they got it. But situational awareness can lower that risk also...

I doubt they can sniff it by driving behind you, I haven't seen any evidence of it anyway.

Button pression system are much safer the only time they can get it is the short instant you press it when you are getting in the car (at least in my 2003 STS it runs just fine with a bare key, but I don't know what "stupid" they are putting in more recent button pressing systems - LOL!). I doubt the amplifiers can pick it up that fast, takes time to home in, either by moving their antenna or other means. Anyway, never heard of this happening either...If anyone has any evidence I'd be interested though.

 

[Gvsukids]

At home I'll put mine in a F-Box. Very unlikely its will happen here but it is easy insurance....I already lost one FOB for 2 days lol, found it after constant searching in my house, so in the F-Box I will never loose it.

Out and about, when get out of the car, stick it in the F-bag (they are small) after locking the G....

The above process will lower the risk enormously.

Most of the theft is the dirt bags coming near your home at night and sniffing your fob...Second most is following you closely in a parking lot or store...The above system eliminates these.

Yea if they are sitting in car next to G. when you take it out of the pouch they got it. But situational awareness can lower that risk also...

I doubt they can sniff it by driving behind you, I haven't seen any evidence of it anyway.

Button pression system are much safer the only time they can get it is the short instant you press it when you are getting in the car (at least in my 2003 STS, I don't know what "stupid" they are putting in more recent button pressing systems - LOL!). I doubt the amplifiers can pick it up that fast, takes time to home in, either by moving their antenna or other means. Anyway, never heard of this happening either...If anyone has any evidence I'd be interested though.

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