AEV-Conversions -- Dualsport RT vs. XP lifts, any tangible differences that are worth the extra $$ for XP?

[MaxStrategery]

The pricing between the two AEV lift kits is approaching $1800. Has anyone experienced first hand the difference between the RT and XP setups? Is the XP that much better?

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[PJZ]

My JT has the XP set up and I had a JK with the RT set up. Upgrading shocks on the JK was a big improvement (went with Falcon's at the time). I would say any high quality shock upgrade is worth it from my experience. A set of Flacons is close to $2k now so $1800 is on par for the upgrade.

 

[MaxStrategery]

My JT has the XP set up and I had a JK with the RT set up. Upgrading shocks on the JK was a big improvement (went with Falcon's at the time). I would say any high quality shock upgrade is worth it from my experience. A set of Flacons is close to $2k now so $1800 is on par for the upgrade.

What performance difference should I expect between the two shocks (rt/xp)? What is the tangible difference?

 

[PJZ]

My day to day ride felt much better on the street, more planted, on the JK when switched over. On the trail it is significantly better especially on washboard or higher speed trails. The JT rides great street and trail, but I don't have a before experience to know how the RT ride is. Often the faster the better on the trail in the JT. Slow rock crawling I don't know if there is any difference RT to XP.

The stock Bilsteins may not be the best - have seen lots of negative comments on them. I thought they were ok. If you don't have a need for the full XP remote reservoir shocks you may be able to split the difference getting a better quality mid range price shock. You can always try them out and decide if an upgrade is needed. The plus side on the XP is those shocks are rebuildiable

 

[RodRecket]

Last year at EJS I spoke with Bilstein and AEV vendors about the 5100 vs the 8100. Both vendors agreed that for my use case the upgraded shocks were unnecessary and not worth spending the extra money. I DD, haul a small teardrop trailer cross country, and like to rock crawl (moab/ouray/ozarks type of slow boulder crawling). I was told that unless you like speed and desert style offroading the value isn't there.

That doesn't mean the shocks aren't better, they are just not worthwhile for my application. If you have the money and want to go faster then I say go for the 8100s. If you're trying to stay budget oriented and lower speed you are not missing out on much performance by sticking to the 5100s.

I was happy I spoke with the vendors. They were open, honest, and didn't try to upsell me.

 

[MaxStrategery]

Last year at EJS I spoke with Bilstein and AEV vendors about the 5100 vs the 8100. Both vendors agreed that for my use case the upgraded shocks were unnecessary and not worth spending the extra money. I DD, haul a small teardrop trailer cross country, and like to rock crawl (moab/ouray/ozarks type of slow boulder crawling). I was told that unless you like speed and desert style offroading the value isn't there.

That doesn't mean the shocks aren't better, they are just not worthwhile for my application. If you have the money and want to go faster then I say go for the 8100s. If you're trying to stay budget oriented and lower speed you are not missing out on much performance by sticking to the 5100s.

I was happy I spoke with the vendors. They were open, honest, and didn't try to upsell me.

Cool, you just saved me quite a bit. Thanks.

 

[chorky]

Last year at EJS I spoke with Bilstein and AEV vendors about the 5100 vs the 8100. Both vendors agreed that for my use case the upgraded shocks were unnecessary and not worth spending the extra money. I DD, haul a small teardrop trailer cross country, and like to rock crawl (moab/ouray/ozarks type of slow boulder crawling). I was told that unless you like speed and desert style offroading the value isn't there.

That doesn't mean the shocks aren't better, they are just not worthwhile for my application. If you have the money and want to go faster then I say go for the 8100s. If you're trying to stay budget oriented and lower speed you are not missing out on much performance by sticking to the 5100s.

I was happy I spoke with the vendors. They were open, honest, and didn't try to upsell me.

I will second this as well. I had many long conversations with AEV to understand the differences and all performance and technical aspects. Their remote reservoir shocks are larger, so they do make some difference there, but the valving is the same so I was informed. So the real defining factor is if you do a lot of desert stuff, or if you drive on significantly long distance washboard roads. For the 'average' forest road cruiser, the standard shocks should be just fine.

That being said, I wish AEV did offer a progressive style shock instead of a digressive shock. Even a linear shock I think would have better performance with their springs than their current digressive shock. I believe all bilsteins (except for the super expensive external bypass shocks) are digressive - meaning, stiff dampening at first, then it gets softer over time. The external bypass shocks take their digressive shocks and effectively turn them into a progressive style.

IMO you only need external reservoirs if you do high speed stuff or lots of washboards. Average potholey roads will have minimal difference noticed between standard and remote reservoir to my understanding.

 

[MaxStrategery]

I will second this as well. I had many long conversations with AEV to understand the differences and all performance and technical aspects. Their remote reservoir shocks are larger, so they do make some difference there, but the valving is the same so I was informed. So the real defining factor is if you do a lot of desert stuff, or if you drive on significantly long distance washboard roads. For the 'average' forest road cruiser, the standard shocks should be just fine.

That being said, I wish AEV did offer a progressive style shock instead of a digressive shock. Even a linear shock I think would have better performance with their springs than their current digressive shock. I believe all bilsteins (except for the super expensive external bypass shocks) are digressive - meaning, stiff dampening at first, then it gets softer over time. The external bypass shocks take their digressive shocks and effectively turn them into a progressive style.

IMO you only need external reservoirs if you do high speed stuff or lots of washboards. Average potholey roads will have minimal difference noticed between standard and remote reservoir to my understanding.

What ride quality exactly are you getting from Bilstein digressive shocks that you don't care for?

 

[chorky]

What ride quality exactly are you getting from Bilstein digressive shocks that you don't care for?

On the 'small' imperfections in the road they are notably resistant to allowing movement. On larger bumps and dips with deeper movement of the suspension it's pretty easy to tell when they have reached their 'no more dampening so lets get soft' limit - which is normal for a digressive shock. I personally would prefer it to be the other way, soft and stiffer as it reaches its limit. A progressive shock seems more natural and logical to me for any suspension type really. I have never understood the digressive style but know that they exist. Granted though, I am over weight for the SD springs so it will be much better once I have the right spring rate for the weight. It's not a deal breaker by any means. But I tend to over-analyze everything and demand perfection. That being said, I still love the current setup, and consideration needs to be taken in regard to my weight which is asking a lot.

 

[MaxStrategery]

On the 'small' imperfections in the road they are notably resistant to allowing movement. On larger bumps and dips with deeper movement of the suspension it's pretty easy to tell when they have reached their 'no more dampening so lets get soft' limit - which is normal for a digressive shock. I personally would prefer it to be the other way, soft and stiffer as it reaches its limit. A progressive shock seems more natural and logical to me for any suspension type really. I have never understood the digressive style but know that they exist. Granted though, I am over weight for the SD springs so it will be much better once I have the right spring rate for the weight. It's not a deal breaker by any means. But I tend to over-analyze everything and demand perfection. That being said, I still love the current setup, and consideration needs to be taken in regard to my weight which is asking a lot.

Interesting, I agree with you. AEV promotes those shocks as being specially tuned for their springs. Do you know of other Progressive shocks that work well with their springs? Or will any shock work with AEV springs?

 

[chorky]

Interesting, I agree with you. AEV promotes those shocks as being specially tuned for their springs. Do you know of other Progressive shocks that work well with their springs? Or will any shock work with AEV springs?

To answer your question in short - no. I am not aware of a progressive shock that will work. Bilstein's are digressive. Fox are linear. I believe Falcon shocks are also digressive.

Yep they are - https://www.falconshocks.com/falcon...lume Optimized Damping,, and off-road driving.

Which makes sense. It stands to reason, without a in depth knowledge of suspension tuning, and how different types of shocks and springs come to a different result and then throwing into the mix resonation from different types of steel or combinations of metals, etc... It seems like most 'lift' manufacturers that have a dual rate spring have a digressive shock. Simple reasoning shows that matches well. As a spring in early stages of compression is on the 'low' end of spring rate (soft), the shock would need to be 'stiff' to avoid a pillow-like feeling and plowing right through the first stage. Then as the spring compresses into it's 2nd or 3rd rate, being stiffer, it would stand to reason a shock would need to be 'softer' in order to allow the suspension to continue to move through the spring length while also becoming stiffer and requiring more force to move - the whole point of multiple rate springs.

But see, companies like Fox found their (consumer) fame way back in the days of the TJ. Back then, TJ's mostly had single rate linear springs. There are a couple companies that do make dual rate springs but I dont know if they are even around anymore. Further, in that era the benefits of multiple rate springs were just getting known (in the consumer world). If you ever noticed that the TJ has an offset upper spring perch, well it's said that was to mimic a dual rate spring while only needing a single rate spring. With a single rate spring, one would want a linear shock - ie. Fox... But with multiple rates like AEV, Clayton, Metalcloak, etc... It becomes more complex and a shock needs to be, or should be, tuned to operate perfectly within that range of spring as it compresses or decompresses. Therein lies the issue with super fine tuning. The guys that build those suspension systems for king of the hammers and the Baja and the Dakar spend thousands of hours fine tuning that stuff to get the changes in spring rates and shock stiffness aligned perfectly.

Their shocks (AEV) are definitely tuned (valved) to the spring rate and intended load rating of the overall lift they offer, so they are right in that regard. As for other shocks that will work? That's a matter of how perfect you want it. In previous discussions I have had with @CrazyCooter who really knows things, shock tuning is really complex. The one issue is AEV keeps their spring rates under wraps tight. I have been able to get some info out of them just to understand my own situation better, and I'm not trying to steel ideas and make a company, but they would really only talk with me in regards to overall weight capacities, unloaded, fully loaded, average daily load, intended use, likes/dislikes of current setup to compare with assumed performance changes when upgrading, etc. I dont think they will give their actual spring rates out to anyone especially now that they pair with Jeep apparently. That makes it hard for anyone to really custom tune a shock without a bunch of trial and error which can be time consuming and expensive.

So, in theory any shock that will work with a 2-3" lift should be fine. The best method to go would be removing the shock and spring and do a full suspension cycle to measure your compressed and extended length needs.

I would be curious to hear what results of the new fancy OME shocks are, but I dont think anyone has tried them yet, in fact I dont think they even have a fitment for the Gladiator or JL. Which is a shame because I believe these are a (if not maybe even the only) progressive style shock.
https://www.northridge4x4.com/part/...gh-performance-rear-passengers-shock-absorber

Icon is a somewhat well known name thanks to X Overland before they sold themselves out and went 'famous'. These appear to be a linear shock with a progressive internal 'bump'. Based on the description I would assume they are actually a internal bypass shock with the end of the bypass before the upper limit of shock compression/extension (basically the same idea as the super expensive Bilstein external bypass shocks).

All that being said, personally, I am weighing the options of in the future looking to a custom tune of some fox shock. They are known to be soft, and are linear, but can be tuned to be stiffer.

Or considering the stupid expensive B8 series, which really, from what I have researched, is the end all be all to shock options unless you do a custom tune.
https://www.northridge4x4.com/part/...-bypass-shock-front-passenger-side-3-4in-lift

But none of that will be until the current 5100's fail - because at the end of the day they are fine. I'm just nitpicking, hard.

Hope that is helpful! Wish I had a better go-to for a progressive shock. Maybe someone else here knows better and can shed some light.

 

[MaxStrategery]

To answer your question in short - no. I am not aware of a progressive shock that will work. Bilstein's are digressive. Fox are linear. I believe Falcon shocks are also digressive.

Yep they are - https://www.falconshocks.com/falcon-philosophy#:~:text=Falcon's proprietary Volume Optimized Damping,, and off-road driving.

Which makes sense. It stands to reason, without a in depth knowledge of suspension tuning, and how different types of shocks and springs come to a different result and then throwing into the mix resonation from different types of steel or combinations of metals, etc... It seems like most 'lift' manufacturers that have a dual rate spring have a digressive shock. Simple reasoning shows that matches well. As a spring in early stages of compression is on the 'low' end of spring rate (soft), the shock would need to be 'stiff' to avoid a pillow-like feeling and plowing right through the first stage. Then as the spring compresses into it's 2nd or 3rd rate, being stiffer, it would stand to reason a shock would need to be 'softer' in order to allow the suspension to continue to move through the spring length while also becoming stiffer and requiring more force to move - the whole point of multiple rate springs.

But see, companies like Fox found their (consumer) fame way back in the days of the TJ. Back then, TJ's mostly had single rate linear springs. There are a couple companies that do make dual rate springs but I dont know if they are even around anymore. Further, in that era the benefits of multiple rate springs were just getting known (in the consumer world). If you ever noticed that the TJ has an offset upper spring perch, well it's said that was to mimic a dual rate spring while only needing a single rate spring. With a single rate spring, one would want a linear shock - ie. Fox... But with multiple rates like AEV, Clayton, Metalcloak, etc... It becomes more complex and a shock needs to be, or should be, tuned to operate perfectly within that range of spring as it compresses or decompresses. Therein lies the issue with super fine tuning. The guys that build those suspension systems for king of the hammers and the Baja and the Dakar spend thousands of hours fine tuning that stuff to get the changes in spring rates and shock stiffness aligned perfectly.

Their shocks (AEV) are definitely tuned (valved) to the spring rate and intended load rating of the overall lift they offer, so they are right in that regard. As for other shocks that will work? That's a matter of how perfect you want it. In previous discussions I have had with @CrazyCooter who really knows things, shock tuning is really complex. The one issue is AEV keeps their spring rates under wraps tight. I have been able to get some info out of them just to understand my own situation better, and I'm not trying to steel ideas and make a company, but they would really only talk with me in regards to overall weight capacities, unloaded, fully loaded, average daily load, intended use, likes/dislikes of current setup to compare with assumed performance changes when upgrading, etc. I dont think they will give their actual spring rates out to anyone especially now that they pair with Jeep apparently. That makes it hard for anyone to really custom tune a shock without a bunch of trial and error which can be time consuming and expensive.

So, in theory any shock that will work with a 2-3" lift should be fine. The best method to go would be removing the shock and spring and do a full suspension cycle to measure your compressed and extended length needs.

I would be curious to hear what results of the new fancy OME shocks are, but I dont think anyone has tried them yet, in fact I dont think they even have a fitment for the Gladiator or JL. Which is a shame because I believe these are a (if not maybe even the only) progressive style shock.
https://www.northridge4x4.com/part/...gh-performance-rear-passengers-shock-absorber

Icon is a somewhat well known name thanks to X Overland before they sold themselves out and went 'famous'. These appear to be a linear shock with a progressive internal 'bump'. Based on the description I would assume they are actually a internal bypass shock with the end of the bypass before the upper limit of shock compression/extension (basically the same idea as the super expensive Bilstein external bypass shocks).

All that being said, personally, I am weighing the options of in the future looking to a custom tune of some fox shock. They are known to be soft, and are linear, but can be tuned to be stiffer.

Or considering the stupid expensive B8 series, which really, from what I have researched, is the end all be all to shock options unless you do a custom tune.
https://www.northridge4x4.com/part/...-bypass-shock-front-passenger-side-3-4in-lift

But none of that will be until the current 5100's fail - because at the end of the day they are fine. I'm just nitpicking, hard.

Hope that is helpful! Wish I had a better go-to for a progressive shock. Maybe someone else here knows better and can shed some light.

Yes helpful. Very much so, thank you. I have been looking for OME NitroCharger Sport shocks for the Gladiator and nothing at all comes up. My OME lifts on an FJ and 4Runner Trail were same setup and so good, just the best overall ride combo shocks/coils.

I have experienced Bilsteins on the 4Runner trail stock suspension they were nothing special, too squishy if I recall, then Bilsteins on both TRX's and they were an abomination on both, not exaggerating. So the only option I see is maybe the Bilstein 5160's possibly.

Lastly TrailRecon.com is selling the 8100's Bilstien branded and the AEV 8100's. Is there going to be a difference between those two?

 

[chorky]

Yes helpful. Very much so, thank you. I have been looking for OME NitroCharger Sport shocks for the Gladiator and nothing at all comes up. My OME lifts on an FJ and 4Runner Trail were same setup and so good, just the best overall ride combo shocks/coils.

I have experienced Bilsteins on the 4Runner trail stock suspension they were nothing special, too squishy if I recall, then Bilsteins on both TRX's and they were an abomination on both, not exaggerating. So the only option I see is maybe the Bilstein 5160's possibly.

Lastly TrailRecon.com is selling the 8100's Bilstien branded and the AEV 8100's. Is there going to be a difference between those two?

yes. AEV valves their branded shocks to work in conjunction with the standard bilsteins. Someone would have to buy a set of both and do some calculated testing to objectively review and discuss the differences. Just how different the AEV ones are from the standard ones is I dont know

 

[RodRecket]

Been reading through the thread, interesting read. FWIW, it's my subjective opinion that the ride is great. I've owned a stock sport, stock rubicon suspension, mopar suspension, and now AEV dulsport. The AEV combo is the best riding, IMO, out of all of them by a mile.

 

[MaxStrategery]

Been reading through the thread, interesting read. FWIW, it's my subjective opinion that the ride is great. I've owned a stock sport, stock rubicon suspension, mopar suspension, and now AEV dulsport. The AEV combo is the best riding, IMO, out of all of them by a mile.

Are you running RT or XP?

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