ESS Question……

[BlueCT]

Full disclosure I’m no expert so take this with a grain of salt. I bought a launch edition JT brand new but it sat on the lot for 7 months before I bought it. THe ESS battery was shot so ESS didn’t work. I decided not to bother getting it warrantied because i hate ESS. Now almost 3 years later I brought it in. They replaced the ESS battery and the main battery. After that the ESS is working as expected. I still hate it but I guess I will buy a tazer.

I actually think if you disable ESS with a Tazer it probably helps preserve your several components of your Jeep. 1) batteries have a life the more you drain and recharge them the quicker they die, I would think if you weren’t using the ESS battery but were driving the Jeep that battery would last longer. 2) Your starter, this I’m just guessing on but I don’t believe there is a 2nd starter so with ESS enabled you start you’re Jeep on average probably 20 times more than with it disable. I would imagine that wears our your starter more. Basically, all things mechanical wear from use. Now if you NEVER use something mechanical it can be bad but you are still using your starter.

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[RK Racing]

Thank

Full disclosure I’m no expert so take this with a grain of salt. I bought a launch edition JT brand new but it sat on the lot for 7 months before I bought it. THe ESS battery was shot so ESS didn’t work. I decided not to bother getting it warrantied because i hate ESS. Now almost 3 years later I brought it in. They replaced the ESS battery and the main battery. After that the ESS is working as expected. I still hate it but I guess I will buy a tazer.

I actually think if you disable ESS with a Tazer it probably helps preserve your several components of your Jeep. 1) batteries have a life the more you drain and recharge them the quicker they die, I would think if you weren’t using the ESS battery but were driving the Jeep that battery would last longer. 2) Your starter, this I’m just guessing on but I don’t believe there is a 2nd starter so with ESS enabled you start you’re Jeep on average probably 20 times more than with it disable. I would imagine that wears our your starter more. Basically, all things mechanical wear from use. Now if you NEVER use something mechanical it can be bad but you are still using your starter.

Thank you for your reply and the info. I so wish somebody would make a fact sheet on ESS and the jumper cable and disconnecting the small battery and so on. I have read up on so many ESS topics, but it seems there is no standard way It affects to three different people disconnecting same things. I just so wish there was a fact sheet or fact post on it.

 

[robinja]

Also…… do you have an opinion or have you done your homework on the jumper cable that they sell for about five bucks that you could easily make yourself but it’s easier to buy that. It goes from post “N1” into “N2” I believe, it has a fuse in line on it.

I have not looked into it but looks like it might be an option. Aux battery change out is a pain in every video I have watched vs a one and done cable... sounds fantastic.

 

[RK Racing]

I have not looked into it but looks like it might be an option. Aux batter change out is a pain in every video I have watched vs a one and done cable... sounds fantastic.

I have done it and it is no big deal. Two ways of doing it, one from the top or one from the bottom, I have watched the videos that did it from the top, and it looked harder than how I did it from the bottom. Pretty simple.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Hello and thank you for your help…………. “””” Is there any truth to the statement that is made often in all these posts that if you have your ESS button shut off most of the time that your ESS battery will not charge up correctly?””””” P.S. I have a Tazer on my Jeep that automatically shuts off the taser.

BIULL CRAP from people that have no clue, but have a lot of hate but don't understand how these work.

Please refer to the dozen other threads and hundreds of posts on this.
Disabling ESS has no impact on battery charging (or life)
It's pretty simple.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I actually think if you disable ESS with a Tazer it probably helps preserve your several components of your Jeep. 1) batteries have a life the more you drain and recharge them the quicker they die, I would think if you weren’t using the ESS battery but were driving the Jeep that battery would last longer. 2) Your starter, this I’m just guessing on but I don’t believe there is a 2nd starter so with ESS enabled you start you’re Jeep on average probably 20 times more than with it disable. I would imagine that wears our your starter more. Basically, all things mechanical wear from use. Now if you NEVER use something mechanical it can be bad but you are still using your starter.

More incorrect "bunk".
One only has to look around to see that the battery life varies wildly - but is more related to other factors. Some with ESS disabled lose batteries quickly while those who allow it to work have batteries last longer.

Go back and read all of the other posts on starters. I've been an automotive electrician since the 1970s- starters included.
These systems know exactly where each piston stops, exactly when each injector last fired and more - a hot start from an ESS event is no real load at all. In fact, a person who does nothing but short frequent drives will lose batteries and starters faster than I will.
Cold starts kill starters and engine parts, not hot ESS starts.
The engines are designed for ESS, the starters no longer use carbon brushes, they use real bearings instead of bronze bearings, I could go on with the differences............


The people spreading mis-information have no real experience with engines, starters or much else with these.

ESS has been around for years before Jeep used it - and Jeep isn't the only one that uses this very system. Chevy did - Volvo, BMW and several others have used the dual battery setup.
Think of hybrids that shut down at every stop. Toyota, Honda, others, no early starter failures.

This is likely thread #856 on this very topic and still - the same old stuff keeps coming up about how it wears things out and is bad and worse. All coming from guessing or repeating the WRONG stuff out there in forums or other sources.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Is there any truth to the statement that is made often in all these posts that if you have your ESS button shut off most of the time that your ESS battery will not charge up correctly?”

NO!

Take a look at the wiring - these charge no matter what unless YOU cause a fuse to blow, or don't drive LONG enough to charge the batteries.
The batteries are in parallel and the aux battery has a semi-direct line to the alternator through the PCR and is also connected to the main/crank battery.........

Sitting around, short drives (less than 30 minutes, short commutes, etc.) and that sort of thing kill the batteries because they can't recharge fully.

Basically most of what you read out there about ESS is just bad info - or worse.

Why would shutting off ESS prevent either battery from charging?

 

[RK Racing]

Thank you to everyone about your experiences. Special things to ShadowsPapa. I’m pretty sure I have read over 40 pages on this topic while I have learned some from it, it’s still very confusing because there is not much information posted as a “”fact””. By no means do I think I am a dumb guy. While it is easy to separate the wild stories from real ones there’s still a lot of truth to uncover and no way on earth is it perfectly clear in all of these ESS posts. Thanks again to everyone for your help, Robert.

 

[jebiruph]

Also…… do you have an opinion or have you done your homework on the jumper cable that they sell for about five bucks that you could easily make yourself but it’s easier to buy that. It goes from post “N1” into “N2” I believe, it has a fuse in line on it.

Heres the latest info, no jumper needed. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/jumperless-aux-battery-bypass.95945/#post-1988194

 

[RK Racing]

Heres the latest info, no jumper needed. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/jumperless-aux-battery-bypass.95945/#post-1988194

Thank you very much.

 

[Commodus]

Whether or not you use ESS has no effect on charging of the batteries. The biggest problem is the batteries discharging since there is always a load on them. Those that drive regularly, especially longer trips, are going to have less issues. Those that drive short trips, or let the truck sit for days at a time, are more likely to have battery issues. The ESS system is not a problem for the batteries, but can be used as a diagnostic tool to indicate potential problems. If you start having ESS issues, it is time to take a look at the condition of the batteries. Jeep does not put the highest quality batteries in at the factory, it just costs to much to do so. They have also had multiple runs of batteries that fail early. Batteries are affected by environment and use. I got over three years out of the main battery, and am still using the original ESS battery.

Second this

 

[Lunentucker]

Heres the latest info, no jumper needed. https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/jumperless-aux-battery-bypass.95945/#post-1988194

Regardless of whether you use ESS, like it, hate it, or whatever, everyone should know this.

 

[BlueCT]

More incorrect "bunk".
One only has to look around to see that the battery life varies wildly - but is more related to other factors. Some with ESS disabled lose batteries quickly while those who allow it to work have batteries last longer.

Go back and read all of the other posts on starters. I've been an automotive electrician since the 1970s- starters included.
These systems know exactly where each piston stops, exactly when each injector last fired and more - a hot start from an ESS event is no real load at all. In fact, a person who does nothing but short frequent drives will lose batteries and starters faster than I will.
Cold starts kill starters and engine parts, not hot ESS starts.
The engines are designed for ESS, the starters no longer use carbon brushes, they use real bearings instead of bronze bearings, I could go on with the differences............


The people spreading mis-information have no real experience with engines, starters or much else with these.

ESS has been around for years before Jeep used it - and Jeep isn't the only one that uses this very system. Chevy did - Volvo, BMW and several others have used the dual battery setup.
Think of hybrids that shut down at every stop. Toyota, Honda, others, no early starter failures.

This is likely thread #856 on this very topic and still - the same old stuff keeps coming up about how it wears things out and is bad and worse. All coming from guessing or repeating the WRONG stuff out there in forums or other sources.

I’m not trying to start a war. ShadowsPapa you seem like a very knowledgeable guy and I have seen you contribute a ton of valuable information to this site. Thank you for that. However, saying someone has no knowledges of engines or starters because of a post they made is basically ignorant and rude. I started my post with a statement saying I’m no expert and offered my informed opinion. I know plenty about engines, I have built and rebuilt several engines. I have never rebuilt a starter only replaced them. However, I do know any motor, including a starter, wears out. They wear out from use. Yes, other things can cause them to fail before wear from use. Yes they are built better in ESS systemsso they take longer to wear out, NO it is not “bunk” it is merely common sense if you don’t use a starter as often it wont wear as often. It is not uncommon for a car that is 10 years old and has 150,000 miles on it to need to have a starter replaced. Are you seriously saying using ESS for 10 years and 150,000 miles has zero impact on the starter wearing out sooner? That seems like bunk to me. I’m not saying it will fail in 2 years vs 10 I’m merely saying with what would amount to more the 10x the usage it will probably fail sooner. Are you saying that , in your opinion it will not fail sooner? You seem like a smart guy so I’m genuinely curious. Is it your opinion that using ESS, which probably means a starters use is at minimum 10x, what it is without ESS will not cause a starter to fail any sooner? Not even one day or 1 start sooner?

In addition you and others have noted that short trips kill a battery faster than almost anything else. If that is true, as we both seem to agree then wouldn’t it stand to reason a short trip with ESS enabled is worse then a short trip without ESS. Let’s think about this for a minute. A battery drains because it starts the car then a short trip is driven and the car is shut off before the battery fully recharged. Doing this hundreds of times slowly kills the battery. Well then a short trip in which the cars was started not once but 5 times because of ESS must be worse. How can you possibly argue against this logic?

Thanks
Chris

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The problem is repeating "information" (term used loosely) found in places - and it's from those not in-the-know. They repeat things and the more it's repeated, the more "factual" it becomes because it's the internet.
Sam says things wear out - Joe and Tom and Rick see it and post it in other places, 10 others repost it so suddenly it's repeated dozens if not hundreds of times across the web, all seeming to say the same thing. Gee, I read that on xyz site and Tim said it yesterday so it must be true! Why would all of these people otherwise be saying the same thing?
Because no one had the guts to tell them the Emperor has no clothes - no one will put up with the flaming that comes from contradicting bad info. The web is made for likes, for being popular and getting along and agreeing.
Most of the stuff out there is ordinary people with just basic knowledge of how things work at best. They see something that appears to be right, it sure SOUNDS good, so it's now a fact of the web.

ESS type systems have been in use for more than 2 decades. Hybrids use it, and other companies have used similar systems since well before it was a dream in a Jeep engineer's brain.
These are not yesterday's starters. Brushes are no longer carbon, commutators are totally different, permanent magnet motors mean a fraction of the amperage draw. Bearings, not bushings.
If an old-school 4.0 starter can last 160,000+ miles, I'd see these as lasting well over 200,000 miles. It's a safe bet no one here will need a starter replaced except under extraordinary circumstances (made by humans, anything can fail)

But again - these engines take little to turn over. A fraction of the load, the spin time on a warmed engine ready for an ESS restart is extremely small. The PCM has things all ready to go - there's oil there where it needs to be, the cylinders are all warmed up, and it knows exactly when each injector fired and how much.
Of course any use is use - but if a person is concerned about going from 250,000 miles down to 230,000 miles on a starter........ when just by how THEY handle the truck they can cut that life even MORE, very interesting. Will many people here even care if their starter life is cut from 250,000 miles down a few miles? Will it matter? The cost will be more than made up in savings on fuel in most cases (and that's been proven - no matter what the "internet experts" claim)
COLD starts are hard on starters. So best keep an engine heater on it, keep it in a heated garage, wrap the battery in a heated blanket, and keep a tender on it.
I'd bet that how people treat these trucks just in daily use is going to kill the starter life a lot faster. So if you are really truly concerned, best to look in the mirror for how to make them last longer.
We don't see other vehicles lining up for new starters.....

Batteries - again, it's the owner's use that has the greater impact on the battery life.
We see the system voltage drop during ESS stops - but that's loaded batteries. Once the load is off the voltage climbs back up quickly. They aren't being drained during an ESS stop like they are sitting for 2 days in a garage, unused. These also adjust the charging rate based on the ESS stop information and IBS information. They don't pick up where they left off.

 

[BlueCT]

The problem is repeating "information" (term used loosely) found in places - and it's from those not in-the-know. They repeat things and the more it's repeated, the more "factual" it becomes because it's the internet.
Sam says things wear out - Joe and Tom and Rick see it and post it in other places, 10 others repost it so suddenly it's repeated dozens if not hundreds of times across the web, all seeming to say the same thing. Gee, I read that on xyz site and Tim said it yesterday so it must be true! Why would all of these people otherwise be saying the same thing?
Because no one had the guts to tell them the Emperor has no clothes - no one will put up with the flaming that comes from contradicting bad info. The web is made for likes, for being popular and getting along and agreeing.
Most of the stuff out there is ordinary people with just basic knowledge of how things work at best. They see something that appears to be right, it sure SOUNDS good, so it's now a fact of the web.

ESS type systems have been in use for more than 2 decades. Hybrids use it, and other companies have used similar systems since well before it was a dream in a Jeep engineer's brain.
These are not yesterday's starters. Brushes are no longer carbon, commutators are totally different, permanent magnet motors mean a fraction of the amperage draw. Bearings, not bushings.
If an old-school 4.0 starter can last 160,000+ miles, I'd see these as lasting well over 200,000 miles. It's a safe bet no one here will need a starter replaced except under extraordinary circumstances (made by humans, anything can fail)

But again - these engines take little to turn over. A fraction of the load, the spin time on a warmed engine ready for an ESS restart is extremely small. The PCM has things all ready to go - there's oil there where it needs to be, the cylinders are all warmed up, and it knows exactly when each injector fired and how much.
Of course any use is use - but if a person is concerned about going from 250,000 miles down to 230,000 miles on a starter........ when just by how THEY handle the truck they can cut that life even MORE, very interesting. Will many people here even care if their starter life is cut from 250,000 miles down a few miles? Will it matter? The cost will be more than made up in savings on fuel in most cases (and that's been proven - no matter what the "internet experts" claim)
COLD starts are hard on starters. So best keep an engine heater on it, keep it in a heated garage, wrap the battery in a heated blanket, and keep a tender on it.
I'd bet that how people treat these trucks just in daily use is going to kill the starter life a lot faster. So if you are really truly concerned, best to look in the mirror for how to make them last longer.
We don't see other vehicles lining up for new starters.....

Batteries - again, it's the owner's use that has the greater impact on the battery life.
We see the system voltage drop during ESS stops - but that's loaded batteries. Once the load is off the voltage climbs back up quickly. They aren't being drained during an ESS stop like they are sitting for 2 days in a garage, unused. These also adjust the charging rate based on the ESS stop information and IBS information. They don't pick up where they left off.

Well thanks for getting back to me. I certainly agree there is a lot of misinformation on the web and I certainly don’t want to be someone spreading it. So to be clear, you seem to agree that using ESS might cut a starters life from 250,00 to maybe 220,000 miles. I agree that isn’t really a big deal and there are certainly other things people can do that would be more productive to care for their vehicles. That said the my original point was ESS probably reduces the life of a starter. It seemed like you called that bunk but that ultimately agreed it probably does reduce the life, even if it is only 10% or so. I think this is a valuable discussion for people to have so they understand these types of things. Simply because I might like or dislike something isn’t going to change my effort to help others understand it and make informed decisions on their own. I think it is great that people want more information. Unfortunately, we often get peoples opinion instead of facts.
Thanks
Chris

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