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EV - not ready for the masses?

stampedingTurtles

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https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-resources
"Today 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States is made by natural gas reforming in large central plants"

For perhaps decades to come, you'd be better off just burning natural gas in your ICE than hydrogen.
The info I'm finding with some quick searches doesn't bear that out; the actual driving efficiency of ICE engine vehicles is low enough that you will actually get more miles out of a unit of natural gas by converting it to hydrogen and using it in a FCEV, and even better than that by using the natural gas to generate electricity and charging a BEV.

It would be interesting to see what a hybrid vehicle running on CNG would have for overall efficiency, it probably improve the situation a bit, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to catch up to the FCEV.
 

fourfa

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that's all probably true yeah, I was reacting to the many opinions in this thread about burning hydrogen in ICEs. Not about BEV or FCEV. Could have been more clear.
 

NachoRuby

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That's right, because the government can run and regulate a power company so much better than a private entity. :headbang:
Works here. Our power, gas, sewage, water, trash (and all utilities) are run by the municipality, and they do a great job, at a great rate, and it's all run by local people. They also generate gas from the landfill waste for power, and sell the excess to other municipalities. It's run locally, by local people, with local interests in mind.
 

Dennis K

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stampedingTurtles

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that's all probably true yeah, I was reacting to the many opinions in this thread about burning hydrogen in ICEs. Not about BEV or FCEV. Could have been more clear.
If we are comparing an ICE vehicle powered by hydrogen vs CNG, what you said is probably true; the increased energy density of hydrogen is almost certainly going to be outweighed (quite literally) by the need to store it cryo or at such high pressures. The only real advantage I can see would be the possible reduction in carbon emissions, and I'm not sure how much of an overall reduction in emissions there would be (moving them from tailpipe emissions to the plant turning the natural gas into hydrogen would likely allow for some improvements and recapture, but it isn't going to eliminate them, and the efficiency losses in the conversion might very well overcome the gains).
 

TwelveGaugeSage

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I work in fuels and would LOVE to see a better EV infrastructure. My job title is literally "Fuel Distribution System Operator" though its kind of an over-simplification. I work in the receipt, storage, transfer, issuing, and returning to bulk of fuels and cryogenics. Hydrogen has no chance in my lowly opinion. It has too many pitfalls that can't be overcome with technology and has no infrastructure. The future is batteries, which get better every year and have a damn near unlimited ceiling for improvements.

In my early 20s I worked for a mushroom farm in PA. It was in a former limestone mine, and we used battery powered vans called "Battronics" to get to our work areas. No power steering, but they worked great for the job despite being really old at the time. I think the trick for getting EVs useful for long trips is going to be infrastructure with easy to find fast charging stations. We are probably going to need to fund it through taxes, but once it is there, it shouldn't be expensive to maintain.
 

MoDean

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Certainly not ready for prime time for those of us that live in rural areas. Yes the technology is improving, but until the infrastructure is there, its a hard no for me.
 

montechie

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Well yeah, the Texas grid isn't prepared for more EVs charging - it can't handle a stiff breeze, as evidenced by the past couple winters.

Up here in Oregon, we have no shortage of power.
I was always impressed with the Oregon model that some of the public utilities are NPO co-ops. My friends and family actually love their co-ops. My mom in Keizer brags about her co-op and sometimes gets refunds (?), I don't remember the last time someone liked their utility company. I'm sure not every co-op is great, but I certainly wish Northwest Energy in MT was tied closer to their customers.
 

Sting-Gray Neutral Pres.

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That's right, because the government can run and regulate a power company so much better than a private entity. :headbang:
My government-operated utility provides me power at a flat 2.8¢/kwh 24/7 with no brownouts ever, and a set rate that is not subject to the whim of fickle markets or Blue Northers. It's why I also have a BEV in the driveway.
 

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Geoarch

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Really? No takers? Has anyone on this thread that claims EVs either don’t work, or are more expensive to charge, ever owned one? Anyone? My advice is stop looking at charts. Talk to people that have these. They’ll happily tell you how it’s worked for them.
In that case everyone I know who drive them are happy with them, charge them at home while sleeping including PHEV owners. Are batteries there yet, no, but the Wright brothers could never imagine flying 120 people across the country in a few hours. A new start up in my city is making a hydrogen facility for turbojets, and yes have produced them, that create only H2O. Unless the oligarchs kill all this (and us with it), we’ll see these all in the near future. GM, Ford, and yes Jeep are counting on it.
 

WILDHOBO

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In that case everyone I know who drive them are happy with them, charge them at home while sleeping including PHEV owners. Are batteries there yet, no, but the Wright brothers could never imagine flying 120 people across the country in a few hours. A new start up in my city is making a hydrogen facility for turbojets, and yes have produced them, that create only H2O. Unless the oligarchs kill all this (and us with it), we’ll see these all in the near future. GM, Ford, and yes Jeep are counting on it.
How I like something twice? That’s basically my point. People that own them, tend to genuinely like them. If they didn’t work, they’d all sell them. People that don’t own them and just hear snippets from co workers and friends, many times make assumptions based on less than complete information. And please, don’t consider Tesla to be the benchmark. They’re too expensive for most people, and use their customers as Guinea pigs. The mainstream manufacturers like GM, Ford, Toyota, Volvo, and VW, etc. do a much better job with consistency.
 

Geoarch

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The 2021 US annual electricity consumption was 4.12 trillion kWHr. Assuming all gasoline vehicles were converted to EV and assuming the gasoline vehicle efficiency at 30%, an additional 1.36 trillion kWHr of electricity would be required throughout the US...that's a 33% increase in electrical generation and distribution. I don't have the numbers as to total US kWHr capacity, but a 33% increase is huge. Then, there is the issue of instantaneous demand on the local distribution system which will occur when everyone gets home from work, plugs in their EV, and turns on the AC...that's a recipe for some distribution lines burning down. I'll think about an EV when I can "refuel" in 5 minutes after a 400 mile drive. My daily driver is a 2000 Nissan Frontier that gets 28 mpg. I don't have to be an accountant to crunch the numbers of my daily driver vs a $50K EV...and yes I do my own maintenance on that vehicle. Do EV's even make it to 220,000 miles? Not knocking EV's. They just don't work for me and they won't work for the US if policies dictate immediate change without verification of the supporting infrastructure. The instantaneous torque would be great, but the energy storage is the issue for me.
The better way to help create that power is through rooftop, not large solar fields, but you have to have the Feds and States make it worthwhile, like New Mexico with net meetering. We spent quite a bit on rooftop solar (6.2 kW), but got over 1/3 of it back in our taxes. And while our neighbors here in Albuquerque spend 200-400 bucks a month in summer, we spend zero. That investment will be paid back in less than six years.
 

Geoarch

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Hardly accurate. They may be newer to the hybrid/EV world, but they're anything but bottom of the barrel.

Until it's possible to recharge an EV in 10 mintues or less, at a "gas" station, with a charger density of 1/2 current gas stations (I suppose we'll have to go back to calling them service stations), it's not going to be adopted. It will be drug along, painstakingly slow and expensively.

And guess what? Once we get to that critical mass point, service stations (and energy companies) are going to jack the prices up to make up for all that "lost" revenue from oil & gas (Phillips Machine example: ).
It's true the oligarchs are going to do everything in their power to squash, EV, PHEV, hydrogen, wind, even nuclear, but mostly in the U.S. Like seemingly everything else, the rest of the world will get on with it (GM, Ford, and yes even Jeep are planning on it). I agree though, charging has to be rapid or cross-country travel, or remote area fieldwork like I do will still be difficult with EV. But the Wright brothers never thought that we would fly 120 or more people across the country in a few hours in less than 50 years after their maiden flight. It will happen, and likely fairly soon.
 

Geoarch

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If you live in California PG&E shuts off your power when the wind blows. Or when they feel like placing political pressure on the governor.

Oh and they regulate your solar permit and limit how much solar you can install limiting the ability to go off grid.

In addition to that the utility costs are outpacing fuel costs :(.
I lived in NorCal for 23 years. I'm surprised that PG&E still exists. We have a much better deal for solar in New Mexico.
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