Is manual better than 8 speed auto?

[ShadowsPapa]

I only have at best 500,000 miles total behind the wheel of an MT vehicle.

No idea for me - my first car at age 14 was a stick, my second car, bought while I still owned the first - a 68 Javelin stick, my truck, a 67 Chevy with the granny low transmission I owned in that time period, then my next car, a 77 AMX, was a 5 speed stick, drove it all over the place, into the mountains around Denver and more. LOVED that car. Dream to drive, the transmission and clutch were very well balanced and reliable. Then my first wife's car - a stick. Didn't own an automatic until 1984 when I bought an 84 Eagle wagon - room for kids/family. Automatic with 4 wheel drive.
I have no idea of the combined miles, a lot.
I do recall the most fun I had with a stick was that 77 AMX - headed home after a movie in Des Moines. Lived a ways off out in the sticks, literally next to a wildlife reserve in some crazy hills. No roads went straight, many weren't even paved.
Blizzard hit while we were in town. Headed home, got part way, into the more rural areas and the road was blocked by a jack-knifed semi. Snowing like crazy, windy.......... the only other way home was back almost a mile BACK, a really really rural road through some hills in river country. No room to turn around - didn't know where the shoulder was by that time.
I backed that thing, with my wife looking out the open right window guiding me, and I used the left mirror as much as possible. Louvers on the rear window meant you couldn't see straight behind you.
I tried to follow what was left of our tracks, trying to keep it slow but fast enough to not STALL in the piling up snow.
Made it, it took a 30 -40 minutes drive and turned it into hours. Reverse was luckily geared pretty low and the limited slip helped, as did the nice low-end torque of that engine.
That car had been all over the place, put a lot of miles on it. I'd take it back today if it was still around, restorable. Loved it and the transmission it had.

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[Chestnut]

and make sure that the flash was reversed (if it happened).

I've read for 3 years about how the flash is "horrible" and "handcippaing'. I've never noticed it. Is it a problem in theory or has it been documented to reduce output? Any one have a dyno chart before and after flash?

The TSB's and literature lead me to believe that it modifys nothing unless the computer captures a large amount of revolution difference between the engine and transmission. To the best of my knowledge my pickup has never cut power or reduced output. I think I'd have noticed as i drive a bit more spirited than your average bear but maybe not?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It's really the clutch, but there's compounding issues. If my memory is correct, prior to the recall, Jeep released a computer flash that was supposed to nerf the manual vehicles to keep them out of the operating range that they thought caused high heat situations. Then came the clutch recall. So if I were to get into a manual I would swap out the clutch (myself, with an aftermarket unit such as centerforce, etc.), and make sure that the flash was reversed (if it happened).

After doing those things you'd have a reliable manual that should operate within the bounds that it is advertised to operate in (in terms of towing, etc.).

I don't have failure rate data or anything though I bet it could be found on NHTSA (maybe).

You could find info on the clutch - when a recall is issued, the company must report the numbers to the NHTSA - those still out, those updated, and so on. Monthly reports. Recalls are a lot of work - PAPER WORK - that is. But I doubt there's much on the transmission - no recall on that, is there?

 

[Chestnut]

my first car at age 14 was a stick,

Ditto, a 1996 Ford Rnager 2.3L 2wd. Learned to drive in ND winters with a light 2wd manual pickup, trial by fire that is. Made me learn how valuable winter tires are. I'll take a 2wd pickup with winter tires over anything 4wd with bridgestone dulars. The tires that came on my Overland are complete HORSE SHIT.

Put 200k on the Ranger before the engine went, then had said Honda for 50k, it was a fun car but the Ford was the daily. Bought a WRX in 2012 that has 90k on it. 60k on my jeep and 50k on a Chevy Colorado MT. So hell not even 500,000 miles. I"m only in my 30s and don't drive for a living so i don't really add up that many miles.

My WRX is your 77 AMX. Complete driver's car trans is awesome clutch is great imo. Pedal position is absolutely perfect. I've driven both coasts with it. Did PCH1 from LA to OR. Made my buddy who is a car guy and has an iron stomach car sick. That was a point of pride. Scrubbed 6/32" off some summer performance tires in 4,000 miles. I'm listening to ever one that has regretted selling their "favorite previous car" I still have mine. I drive it maybe 500 miles a year and it sits in my garage. I roll it back and forth every 5 days to keep the tires in good shape and to stop the brake pads from rusting on to the rotors.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Ditto, a 1996 Ford Rnager 2.3L 2wd. Learned to drive in ND winters with a light 2wd manual pickup, trial by fire that is. Made me learn how valuable winter tires are. I'll take a 2wd pickup with winter tires over anything 4wd with bridgestone dulars. The tires that came on my Overland are complete HORSE SHIT.

Oh, yeah, I had a 2 wheel drive pickup that got stuck on my lawn if the grass was wet.
The tires that my Overland came with didn't stay on the Overland very long - GREAT for highway and mpg, not so much for our winters (you know about that)
Winter tires matter.

My second one - totaled the first at 9 months and 9,000 miles. It was white with hood and deck factory decals - a flaming hornet.

 

[Thunderspud]

This isn't an argumentative question but I would just love to know what i'm getting into with my MT, What data? Is there data on transmission failure rates? Are we talking the clutch recall? If we are talking the clutch recall, is that a fair data point? At any point anything can be subject to a recall due to poor manufacturing, poor design, etc.

If you are bored, here are all the "573" Reports for the three clutch recalls my current truck has been subject to.

Of course, I maintain these are all completely meaningless in a discussion about which version of the truck is "better" to drive. But for the sake of the conversation, I submit they are about as close to any objective data points anyone will be able to provide. Specifically, the sections titled "Description of Defect" and "Chronology".

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/158351yzevYqpDAEZj_rzNNiSqzaSrYvR?usp=sharing

 

[Chestnut]

Specifically, the sections titled "Description of Defect" and "Chronology".

Did you do all that legwork for my 1 question? Dang! My hat is off to you!

If my reading and numbers are right that's 68 failures on 69,201 vehicles. Hum.

Reading the fix description makes me question ever doing the fix. I do not smell slipping or have not observed any issues in 60k miles on my truck. The fix doesn't seem awe inspiring and honestly seems like i could be replacing 1 good part with a part that is questionable?

 

[LouisvEarlleJT]

You could find info on the clutch - when a recall is issued, the company must report the numbers to the NHTSA - those still out, those updated, and so on. Monthly reports. Recalls are a lot of work - PAPER WORK - that is. But I doubt there's much on the transmission - no recall on that, is there?

Naw, it's all been on the clutch.

 

[Thunderspud]

Did you do all that legwork for my 1 question? Dang! My hat is off to you!

Nah, I am just a research nerd I guess. I already had the recall documents (even the ones that aren't in that folder) saved from when I bought the truck. Hell, here is a folder with all kinds of random info on these trucks. Sort of just throw things in there as I come across them.

And, if you happen to have a Grand Cherokee of the WK2 variety....here is a (mostly complete) copy of the best resource for those I have ever seen. Scraped from the original site before it went under, and then rehosted on my own server as an archive.

 

[Wheelin98TJ]

Nah, I am just a research nerd I guess. I already had the recall documents (even the ones that aren't in that folder) saved from when I bought the truck. Hell, here is a folder with all kinds of random info on these trucks. Sort of just throw things in there as I come across them.

And, if you happen to have a Grand Cherokee of the WK2 variety....here is a (mostly complete) copy of the best resource for those I have ever seen. Scraped from the original site before it went under, and then rehosted on my own server as an archive.

Whoever made those WJ and WK Jeep webpages did an excellent job.

I still occasionally access the WJ page using the Wayback Machine website.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151212223531/http://www.wjjeeps.com/

 

[Advntrbound]

I've had a MT in my Gladiator since 2020. I want an auto.

 

[Biff Happy]

This seems like a silly conversation as it’s not even about the transmission, it’s the engine it’s pared with, it has no power in the low end.
thats why with the manual you have to rev to shift or reverse feels too tall (it’s 4.49:1, like most transmissions, even lower than some, i guess it would need like six to one to feel like it had power and go slow enough, or change to 5.38s in the axles on stock wheels.)
people would like it better behind the diesel with the torque at low rpms, i think that’s why people keep saying the liked the nsg- 370 or the 5 speed in the TJ/lj, Jeep used to state like 90% of the torque of th 4.0L was developed by 2000 rpm.
i will allow that the clutch is pretty light duty but I haven’t had issues with mine yet (purely anecdotal, I know). I do like the double overdrive, that’s what the LJ always feels it needs cruising on the highway. And having to shift down when you go uphill? That’s what gears are for: lower gears transfer HP to the wheels, that’s what you’re automatic is doing by itself all the time. (4th is 1:1, of course 5th and 6th have no power their “over” drives.)

 

[Stan H]

This seems like a silly conversation as it’s not even about the transmission, it’s the engine it’s pared with, it has no power in the low end.
thats why with the manual you have to rev to shift or reverse feels too tall (it’s 4.49:1, like most transmissions, even lower than some, i guess it would need like six to one to feel like it had power and go slow enough, or change to 5.38s in the axles on stock wheels.)
people would like it better behind the diesel with the torque at low rpms, i think that’s why people keep saying the liked the nsg- 370 or the 5 speed in the TJ/lj, Jeep used to state like 90% of the torque of th 4.0L was developed by 2000 rpm.
i will allow that the clutch is pretty light duty but I haven’t had issues with mine yet (purely anecdotal, I know). I do like the double overdrive, that’s what the LJ always feels it needs cruising on the highway. And having to shift down when you go uphill? That’s what gears are for: lower gears transfer HP to the wheels, that’s what you’re automatic is doing by itself all the time. (4th is 1:1, of course 5th and 6th have no power their “over” drives.)

And Georgia Overdrive is for downhill highway driving

 

[Biff Happy]

And Georgia Overdrive is for downhill highway driving

yeah and go drive an old cj with the 134 in it and first gear is your uphill gear, a steep downhill is the only way you are ever seeing 60mph!

 

[Stan H]

yeah and go drive an old cj with the 134 in it and first gear is your uphill gear, a steep downhill is the only way you are ever seeing 60mph!

My Grandfather had a 49 Jeep willys pickup and a Military era JeepM1? Any way we hunted out of the military Jeep
He aways had Coon hounds plots and walkers and they would ride in the little area behind the seats and I would set on a small cushion in the passengers side. It was perfect for getting back up in an old hollow dirt road with big ruts or water breaks alot of them old logging roads or conventional well pad roads . Thing would climb a tree.

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