LSPI / Engine Knock - how many are using ESS?

[Jeepin' John]

Hey Y'all, for those that have the "key rattle" ping sound, low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI) / the knock the owner's manual says is "normal" (The light-throttle ping around 30mph or so you can hear when the windows are down): how many of you keep ESS on and use it and how many are getting this knock and always turn ESS off?

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[Hipbilly]

When I first when to 35s and still had 3.73 gears, I experienced this for the first time. I was tear-assing through the hills of midtown Little Rock in a hurry, lugging the little bit of torque this engine has to offer (6MT Trans, so now auto downshifting), and heard that rattle on a couple hills (ESS OFF).
By happenstance, a thread popped up here at work about the subject that day, and I kept RPM up from there on out (2,000 min for accelerating).
I never heard it again.

NOW, I've just re-geared to 4.56, and I don't have to think about it at all. the engine can pull just fine at sub-2,000rpm ranges, with no excessive lugging. Plus, the RPMs keep themselves high.

 

[Jeepin' John]

What i'm trying to figure out is if the ESS system has some unintended side effects. My wife's '17 pacifica with the pentastar doesn't ping on 87 with random valvoline express lane oil, but my JT does on 93 and Castrol Edge with calcium levels below 1,000 ppm (low).

She doesn't have ESS, i do and use mine all the time. Some people experience a rough idle when ESS deactivates and starts the engine, myself included. Meanwhile, my wife's van hums along perfectly 24/7

Apparently "cylinder wash" where leftover/unburned fuel in the combustion chamber can cause both a rough idle and contribute to oil/fuel particles that can trigger knock under the right conditions (LSPI). Wondering if the constant shutting off and starting by the ESS system is causing cylinder wash to "some" degree and contributing to rough idle, and primarily LSPI / knock

 

[Hipbilly]

What i'm trying to figure out is...

I have immediately hit the ESS disable button as soon as I start the truck, from day one.

One thing I didn't mention.... my valve train started up with a racket of a "lifter knock" type sound a couple months back, accompanied with the rough and low idle. This wasn't long after the episode of pinging.

It was very obviously the bad rocker these engines are prone to, rather than the "normal pentastar tick".
I took it to the dealer, and under warranty, they replaced all 4 cams and every rocker/lifter in the engine.... the rouge idle went away, and misfire code cleared. i've not tried lugging it to see if it'll still ping, though...

All this with ESS dissabled, so probably not a contributing factor.
Looks like the '17 Pacifica was the first year model of the Gen 2 Pentastar as well, so it's not that...

 

[Courtsm3]

I had it too, more prominent during warmer summer months so i ran 89 or 91 octane. 91 when i was towing at it appeared to minimize it or eliminate it. I continue to run 91 as it appears the 11.3:1 pentastar likes it better. I find it runs smoother and pulls better on hills with a smidge better mpg too. It doesnt offset the extra cost but when it runs better its worth it to me. My .02 cents.

 

[Cheveyboy]

I've been getting knock at low load low RPM since new. First year I ignored it, thinking it was the clutch or road debris. Then I started paying more attention to it, and it was definitely pinging. BTW, I don't use ESS at all. I stopped using Shell gas, since their additives can lower octane levels, and started using BP 91. I noticed a big impact with low RPM drivability, as I picked up a bit of torque bellow 2500 RPM. Which confirmed my suspicion that it was pulling timing. I continue to pay attention, and it doesn't ping "as much" since the gas and octane change. That high compression and low octane requirement is kinda suspicious. I'm sure those bearings and spark plugs would have a story to tell after 100k miles.

 

[NormanF]

JUST dropped my Gladiator off at the jeep dealer this morning with that complaint. If I use 91/93 octane, it is reduced almost entirely. Otherwise I use Lucas Octane Boost with regular octane (87). (of course when I was driving to the dealership this morning and filled up with regular and no octane boost - I couldn't replicate the pinging noise)

 

[Average Oregonian]

LSPI and knock are two separate things. The former is rare and mostly plagues direct injected engines and/or forced induction engines these days; the latter is somewhat "normal" and will be encountered occasionally (and sometimes often) by virtually all engines running on pump gas.

Audible knocking (pinging) is mostly dependent on the current conditions; a previous engine stop-start event will not induce knock unless it also contributed to another factor that is still present when the knocking happpens, such as a significantly increased air charge temperature (due to "heat soak" / stagnant air in the intake tract while the engine is not running) or similar.

Manufacturers have to "ride the limit" for a variety of reasons and use modern engine management to negate knock to the best of their ability, and they only need it to last for the warranty period. If audible knocking is present, and it gets better with 89+ octane, it's a good idea to keep using that better fuel. Other than the cost factor, there's no downside. ESS won't make a meaningful impact in either direction.

 

[jeepstertim]

I'm not sure I see the link with ESS and the noise. Summer I tend to disable the ESS (it's hot in the Middle East and I need the aircon...) and now I disable until the engine is warm but then let it function normally.

If cylinder wash happens on ESS, why wouldn't happen every time you turn the engine off?

 

[vettred84]

i hit that off everytime i start my jeep. its annoying does not do anything good at all. you burn more gas when your vehicle first starts. its hard on your starter, battery, and every time it shuts down all your oil runs down, so basically your adding wear to all those parts.

 

[sharpsicle]

ESS is not your culprit here. There are many many other variables between your Gladiator and your wife's Pacifica that could actually have a direct link with the pinging (think along the tuning/ECU mapping lines). Cylinder wash is going to be an issue if you have an injector issue, not because of ESS. Especially with how the engine tends to run lean prior to ESS shutoff. I would think to look at those variables first.

Saying that since your truck has ESS and her Pacifica doesn't, and therefore ESS is the problem, is trying to force causation. By that logic you could say that your engine pinging is due to your 4wd transfer case since the Pacifica doesn't have one either!

 

[Kblanton]

Not that anybody cares what I have to say but...

I found by accident that the auto stop/start caused my Gladiator to have throttle response lag. As a long time manual driver I tend to blip the throttle prior to releasing the clutch. I found when I did this the engine did not respond and I would choke it down. Once I installed the Tazer and the auto nanny system is always off I never choke it down and I can hear the engine respond to my throttle blips.

I also only run 87 since the owner's book said I would get no benefit from anything higher. I have to run 93 in my showcar so I understand the difference.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

ESS is not your culprit here. There are many many other variables between your Gladiator and your wife's Pacifica that could actually have a direct link with the pinging (think along the tuning/ECU mapping lines). Cylinder wash is going to be an issue if you have an injector issue, not because of ESS. Especially with how the engine tends to run lean prior to ESS shutoff. I would think to look at those variables first.

Saying that since your truck has ESS and her Pacifica doesn't, and therefore ESS is the problem, is trying to force causation. By that logic you could say that your engine pinging is due to your 4wd transfer case since the Pacifica doesn't have one either!

I also saw that. Why in the world is anyone bundling ESS with any engine sounds? Totally in different rooms if not on different planets. Not related.

If cylinder wash happens on ESS, why wouldn't happen every time you turn the engine off?

It doesn't. Only people who have no clue believe that.
ESS tracks the exact position of every piston and exactly when each injector fired - and more. When that engine restarts the startup is actually cleaner than if you just went out and did a cold start. Cold starts wear engines more than ESS but then everyone on the internet is an engineer smarter than any auto maker employs - just ask 'em.

If it's REALLY a ping, it's not cylinder wash or ESS.
Some light ping is not destructive. The key is knowing what is and what isn't. Anyone who grew up with cars in the 60s and 70s knows this. It's not ideal but a very light ping isn't earth-shattering.
My wife and I both leave ESS fully enabled at all times. We've never had any ping, we've never had any engine failure, never had any codes and they run smooth and reliably.

Operating on the temporary thought that "there's some fuel left from an ESS shut down" - that fuel is consumed after a very very short time. Not even enough to count on your Rolex. Kick that thought out. Even legacy engines could clear out a bit of extra fuel within a dozen cycles - and at 800 rpm, that's what, a couple of seconds?

People keep guessing and trying to find or pin blame and it seems to keep getting tossed back to the ESS they love to hate so much.

Wow, another thing blamed on ESS -

I found by accident that the auto stop/start caused my Gladiator to have throttle response lag. As a long time manual driver I tend to blip the throttle prior to releasing the clutch. I found when I did this the engine did not respond and I would choke it down. Once I installed the Tazer and the auto nanny system is always off I never choke it down and I can hear the engine respond to my throttle blips.

Sorry, but no. ESS doesn't do that. It monitors only, it has no impact on normal engine operations. It tracks conditions, it doesn't change them. Too many have no idea what it does, what it does NOT do or even how it works. While you are driving and shifting ESS isn't doing squat, not a thing.

You installed tazer - what else did you do?
If it was ESS doing it, had you had pressed the ess button to disable it after you started the truck, you'd see the same effect. But you can't because that's not how ess works.
Human nature is to equate A with B or do two things and assume it was the one thing they dislike that was the problem. You'd have thought it fixed things because of the hate for ess and wanting to much to blame yet something else on it.

But here we go, another god-awful "I hate ESS, it sucks and it's why we have wars in the middle-east and it's the cause of the death of the tree in my back yard and the reason for inflation.

ESS has zip to do with pinging, with your truck idle while you are driving it, shift patterns, seat comfort or anything else people love to blame on it.

 

[Hipbilly]

Here's another interesting anecdote to add to tall this confusion about what appears to be an increasingly gremlin-ridden truck....

I've got (2) "separate" issues right now. One is the reverse sensor (I guess in the trans?) seems to be giving an intermittent signal. ~50% of the time the back up camera does not come on, and at the same time the reverse lights don't come on.

Additionally, after about a minute of driving, the ESS system gives its "unavailable" warning and the light stays on on the dash.

Took it to the dealer for an oil change and a diag (to see if it'd be warrantied), and BOTH issues are rooted in a transmission failure code. they'll have to have they're "tier 4" tech go in there, and possibly swap the trans out for a new one....

 

[AmosMoses01]

Took it to the dealer for an oil change and a diag (to see if it'd be warrantied), and BOTH issues are rooted in a transmission failure code. they'll have to have they're "tier 4" tech go in there, and possibly swap the trans out for a new one....

I'm curious about that - did you have a code indicator shown on the dash, or did the diag run cause the dealer to see a transmission failure code?

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