Need Some Advice on Rust Protection

[Klutch]

I've done both ways - and I can tell you that without, I've had frame rust, body rust and other fun stuff. But with - never a problem.
Look at the frames - these have had people complaining of rust for months.
The treatment I buy is covered for something like 7 years.
I restore and refurbish vehicles.

There's almost nothing they can "dip" in that will prevent rust. Phosphate treatments, yeah, VW did that for a few years, maybe they still do, and AMC went through that zinc thing in the 80s - and guess what I have next to my shop with totally gone frame rails and holes in the floors. 2 of them. OK, so the fenders are good.

I've had mine protected and will continue to do so if I plan on keeping them long at all.

These youtube people, bloggers, vloggers (is that a virtual lumberjack?) and so on don't have the decades of hands-on I do. I have to laugh at some of what I see, seriously - who are these kids making money on the web?
Put it this way - when I treat them, I have NO rust issues, when I don't, I have rust issues.
I have the ability to put almost any sort of treatment there is on bare steel as far as a dip or spray like the factory may use - none of those are long-term solutions.

The problem with after-market stuff is that once that truck has set around, gotten wet, dusty or dirty in and on things, you can never get protection perfect. Right off the truck - you have a great chance at long-term protection.

Although I am skeptical of undercoating and sprays, I'm willing to consider some of them might be helpful. You have shared your experience and I believe you. Although, I think we've discussed the zinc coating during manufacturing before. I'm under the impression all new vehicles get this treatment, but it's pretty hard to provide proof in every case.

Sponsored

 

[Klutch]

Try to find a Ziebart Rustproofing shop. It’s the best rustproofing you can get done to a vehicle. If done correctly it will not rust from the inside out and the complete bottom is coated inside and out. The downside is that you will hate working on the bottom after you have it done.

I intend no offense, but allow me to share that I was looking at buying a 1970 Mustang Mach 1 some years ago. When I asked about rust, the owner said, "It was treated with Ziebart. It's good to go!". Well, after driving 5 hours one way, I inspected the car and saw the entire undercarriage was completely rusted out. I couldn't believe the car hadn't collapsed under its own weight. Now, that car was very old, but I looked into the Ziebart stuff and nothing I found was positive. Maybe it helped, but it was pretty clear it didn't help much.

 

[HuskyTaylor]

I intend no offense, but allow me to share that I was looking at buying a 1970 Mustang Mach 1 some years ago. When I asked about rust, the owner said, "It was treated with Ziebart. It's good to go!". Well, after driving 5 hours one way, I inspected the car and saw the entire undercarriage was completely rusted out. I couldn't believe the car hadn't collapsed under its own weight. Now, that car was very old, but I looked into the Ziebart stuff and nothing I found was positive. Maybe it helped, but it was pretty clear it didn't help much.

No offense taken. If you read my post it says “ if done correctly” I owned an worked at a Ziebart franchise and I knew of a lot of franchises that didn’t use the sealant from Ziebart. Those cars would rust just like any other car. Even vehicles that were done with the Ziebart sealant if not applied correctly could rust. Our shop always got 98-99 percent coverage when inspected by the Ziebart Reps. I had my truck for 10 years and 300k and had no rust problems.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

No offense taken. If you read my post it says “ if done correctly” I owned an worked at a Ziebart franchise and I knew of a lot of franchises that didn’t use the sealant from Ziebart. Those cars would rust just like any other car. Even vehicles that were done with the Ziebart sealant if not applied correctly could rust. Our shop always got 98-99 percent coverage when inspected by the Ziebart Reps. I had my truck for 10 years and 300k and had no rust problems.

My 1982 had the AMC "factory Ziebart" - sticker on the door and everything. It's a 100% rust-free car. Granted it came from CA, but it's been in Iowa since 2007..........

( As an aside - if I could find one of those 80s round blue and yellow Ziebart decals, MAN, that would be SO COOL! That and a ZJ belt routing diagram and my SX4 would have all of the decals it should have! )

There are places that even Ziebart can't guarantee protection - where panels are welded together, say, floor panels. They overlap and are spot welded. If the protection should open for any reason, dust, dirt, sand, water, whatever, gets between the floor panels and the floors will rust at those joints - UPWARD, by the way.
Cars are made with many many boxed-in areas - good places for water and dirt to accumulate. If drains plug, wet dust and dirt sit in there. Where the parts are against each other but not sealed, you'll have rust.
A good job of rust protection gets into those areas - but lack of care, age, bumps, flexing and twisting can open joints up exposing unprotected areas.

In this example I repaired a while back on another car, it was rusted thin on the top layer where things overlapped. The rest of the floor solid. So I cut the rot out, removed as much rust as possible on the brace below, used RUST CONVERTER (NOT SEALER OR ENCAPSULATOR!) converted the rust, primed, painted, and welded a patch in place. (I then cleaned up the underside of the patch and treated and sealed it)
The brace is where the rear of the front seat attaches. No way Ziebart could get in there.

 

[WaterDR]

I work for a company that specializes in chemical corrosion protection, I have a background in metallurgy, a chemical engineering degree, was a former marine engineer and we manage automotive paint spray booths for almost every major manufacturer in the world.

All that being said, there is no perfect solution

Where you live, how you drive and maintain make a big difference. Rock chips especially underside the vehicle.

Yes, modern vehicles are MUCH better protected from the factory than in the past. Heck my last two new cars were shockingly low on corrosion. 2012 Grand Cherokee and 2008 Pacifica. Both had about 125k on them. Never had after market treatments.

The issue with additional coatings is that moisture can get beneath the surface and once the layer is broken you can end up with high localized corrosion rates.

.what caused the corrosion? We often blame chlorides and snow but why about dissimilar metals? We have aluminum being used more and more on vehicles.

Heck I just installed some head light covers on my gladiator. They are aluminum. They bolt into steel. Dumb. The manufacturer sent stainless screws to replace the steel ones for this vary reason....but that still won’t prevent an issue entirely.

folks most at risk IMO? Those will more aftermarket parts, especially those that require power, those who off-road a lot, and those who live in winter climates.

just my $0.02

 

[aj8544]

In regards to the factory coatings the good news is that in my experience FCA has some of the best. After owning multiple newer FCA vehicles, as well as Chevy, Nissan, and Ford I can say the FCA frames, axles and diffs etc have held up the best here in the extreme salt and brine of western NY. The worst Ive owned so far is my 2018 F150- yea the aluminum body doesnt rust but the frame and rear diff look like a 20 year old vehicle after 2 years. I cant believe Ford actually treats them with anything.

That being said I did spray my JT’s frame etc... with CRC marine last winter. From the videos referenced above I thought it looked promising. I didnt do Fluid Film because I try to wash it frequently in the winter.

 

[WaterDR]

In regards to the factory coatings the good news is that in my experience FCA has some of the best. After owning multiple newer FCA vehicles, as well as Chevy, Nissan, and Ford I can say the FCA frames, axles and diffs etc have held up the best here in the extreme salt and brine of western NY. The worst Ive owned so far is my 2018 F150- yea the aluminum body doesnt rust but the frame and rear diff look like a 20 year old vehicle after 2 years. I cant believe Ford actually treats them with anything.

That being said I did spray my JT’s frame etc... with CRC marine last winter. From the videos referenced above I thought it looked promising. I didnt do Fluid Film because I try to wash it frequently in the winter.

I have some concerns about the impacts of vehicles that have so much aluminum as it relates to the condition of the steel components. Long term these trucks should do great in regards to body panels....frames.....not so sure.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have some concerns about the impacts of vehicles that have so much aluminum as it relates to the condition of the steel components. Long term these trucks should do great in regards to body panels....frames.....not so sure.

I already see rust on untreated spots..........

Aluminum is a mixed bag - the bumpers on my Eagle are aluminum - not a lick of oxidation.
I have aluminum bumpers stashed in my lean-to from 2 other cars, no issues. There's another car in my shop I've been working on with aluminum bumpers - no issues.
It depends on the alloy, how it's been treated/prepped/protected, and like said - what it's against.
Aluminum oxidizes terribly - man, some of the parts I work on are pitted and eaten so badly. The sill plates on cars and trucks used to be aluminum screwed to the steel sill and rocker area - those were often eaten clean away! Looked like termites, or worse, had been there. That's one area I appreciate the newer plastic compounds - the aluminum sill plates just won't hold up, "plastic" will.

Dissimilar metals was mentioned - it's a big deal. Look at the lengths plumbers go to to keep the copper pipe from directly touching the steel galvanized pipes when mixed piping is used. I run into problems with alternators where the alternator frame contacts the iron stator core - those things can be stuck together badly.
I also use electricity to de-rust parts, electrolysis. So moisture, conductive "salts" or other compounds, it all mixed to form rust, I use the reverse to remove it.
So keep conductive salts and compounds away, keep things dry - or at least washed up good, keep drain holes clean (I used to do that every weekend with my AMX and that thing lasted for YEARS even in Iowa year-round driving, no rust when I traded it)

>>The issue with additional coatings is that moisture can get beneath the surface and once the layer is broken you can end up with high localized corrosion rates.<<

And this is why I keep watch under my SX4 and if I see the original protection barrier compromised, I clean and reseal it.

 

[Robicon]

IMO rust-proofing is a must around here. Over the past few vehicles, I’ve had some rust proofed and some I didn’t bother. It was night and day after the 2 years of driving them. So much salt on the roads around here. I’ve seen off lease Wranglers on the dealer lot for sale that didn’t have any rust proofing and it has rust all over the place.
However I do agree with what some are saying about new vehicles compared to old. I don’t think it’s critical to rust proof it every single year but every second year seems to work for me. Besides it’s an inexpensive risk. I’ve spent much more money on much dumber things for trucks haha

 

[Blade1668]

Try to find a Ziebart Rustproofing shop. It’s the best rustproofing you can get done to a vehicle. If done correctly it will not rust from the inside out and the complete bottom is coated inside and out. The downside is that you will hate working on the bottom after you have it done.

Well I'm not the fan of Ziebart rust proofing, in fact it ended up "helping" the rusting out of my MJ. It sealed it up to hold the water and slop on the metal. A big reason was it plugged drain holes, it was done by Jeep factory as one of the options I got. My MJ was washed and waxed weekly then, only missing that when I was deployed during the first 4 years of ownership. The next 3 years it was washed and waxed regularly and serviced quite often. My second dislike of Ziebart was the "warranty requirements" after getting back from a deployment and missing the annual service, voided warranty by being over a year. I was deployed for over 3 months and went over the year window by few weeks.
A method I learned from a long time owner of classic cars from north east coastal to clean it like your going to eat off of it then coat and in frame with chainsaw bar oil covering everything on under carriage, door drain vents and in frame openings. Then do wash it often and check for rust regularly. After doing this you need to park it on cardboard to catch drips

 

[HuskyTaylor]

Well I'm not the fan of Ziebart rust proofing, in fact it ended up "helping" the rusting out of my MJ. It sealed it up to hold the water and slop on the metal. A big reason was it plugged drain holes, it was done by Jeep factory as one of the options I got. My MJ was washed and waxed weekly then, only missing that when I was deployed during the first 4 years of ownership. The next 3 years it was washed and waxed regularly and serviced quite often. My second dislike of Ziebart was the "warranty requirements" after getting back from a deployment and missing the annual service, voided warranty by being over a year. I was deployed for over 3 months and went over the year window by few weeks.
A method I learned from a long time owner of classic cars from north east coastal to clean it like your going to eat off of it then coat and in frame with chainsaw bar oil covering everything on under carriage, door drain vents and in frame openings. Then do wash it often and check for rust regularly. After doing this you need to park it on cardboard to catch drips

I have been away from the rustproofing business for 33 years and I am sure that a lot has changed. Ziebart had changed their requirement of using only their sealant the last couple of years that I was doing it. I never used anything but their sealant because if done right the vehicles would not rust. Now I do know of shops that were using off brand sealants because it was less expensive to do so and that could have been what you experienced. Oil is not a good protector because it will attract dust which will get wet and causing rust. Just keeping a truck clean, top and bottom definitely will make them last a long time.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have been away from the rustproofing business for 33 years and I am sure that a lot has changed. Ziebart had changed their requirement of using only their sealant the last couple of years that I was doing it. I never used anything but their sealant because if done right the vehicles would not rust. Now I do know of shops that were using off brand sealants because it was less expensive to do so and that could have been what you experienced. Oil is not a good protector because it will attract dust which will get wet and causing rust. Just keeping a truck clean, top and bottom definitely will make them last a long time.

I also will not use oil of any sort. Oil gives its own issues.
CLEAN is one big thing - I used to wash out all of the recesses and clear all body drains every weekend on my Javelin and AMX which I bought brand new. Years later and all but 90,000 miles later it was still rust-free.
For classic car restoration, we convert rust, seal and paint - and keep clean.
For my Eagle - the Ziebart helped - as long as it remains intact - and the fact they used a lot of zinc on the lower body panels, that helped. But owner maintenance is as important as anything.

Sponsored