New Gladiator DW and a Possible Solution?

[tmgarmon]

Hi gang! New to this forum and first post. I have been a long time Jeep owner, and just upgraded from my 2008 JK 2DR Wrangler Sport 6 speed which I had for 10 years to a 2020 JT Overland.

I'll give you a little history for your entertainment. I bought the '08 Wrangler in Oregon for a song, and slowly upgraded it to be a rock crawling/DD (D44's, lockers, 35's, etc.) here in AZ (which is a blast here by the way!). It treated me very good, but as I got older I missed having some capability to haul stuff, (and creature comforts) also it was kind of important to include more than two adults and two VERY SMALL folks on rides. so I hunted around and found a 2020 JT Overland that was an FCA Buyback with 8,000 mi on the odometer (Some California dude didn't like that fact that once he bought a Jeep...........he was actually driving a Jeep!).

The Jeep was awesome, until I installed a Rough Country leveling kit (first mistake.....Rough Country). Turns out I've learned that JL's and JT's have some pretty lightweight components up front compaired to the JK and TJ. This particular JT started barking at me in the form of DEATH WOBBLE, only at freeway speeds (70MPH+). Even with stock tires! Well, in the four Jeeps that I have owned and modified prior, DW has never come knocking..........until this one. So, time for the usual inspections/torque checks/TSB's (steering gear), but what are you going to find on a Jeep with stock everything (except the Rough Country c**p) and 8,000 mi on the odometer? Not a damn thing!

I don't blame FCA/Stellantis or the dealership, they don't know what to do either.

Then you get pissed enough, and you pull the leveling kit off..........and all is good.........but you're not level! And you have failed!

In the time before pulling the kit off, I've slowly amassed good quality front end parts (longer LCA's, Synergy Tie Rod/Drag Link/Track Bar, Damper Relocation Kit). but have been very hesitant to dig back in and put all this good stuff on.......because.........DEATH WOBBLE!!!!!

Then while scouring the internet, I ran across the Roadmaster Exact Center Damper on the JL forum. I figured, Why not? Great reviews. So I ordered one. They're currently back ordered, but was promised it in about two weeks.

So the plan is to pound all this stuff on at once when the damper comes in. Figured I'll start with giving the Rough Country Pucks one more shot.

I'll update this in about two weeks when I get all of my s**t together.

Stay tuned..........................

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[Labswine]

I found in the past with my old '96 ZJ, that after lifting and alignment, EVERYTHING must be either torque tight as per mfg. specs or BUBBA tight. Anything even very slightly loose, will cause the dreaded death wobble. So, when you put on the new components, MAKE SURE everything is as tight as it should be.

 

[tmgarmon]

I found in the past with my old '96 ZJ, that after lifting and alignment, EVERYTHING must be either torque tight as per mfg. specs or BUBBA tight. Anything even very slightly loose, will cause the dreaded death wobble. So, when you put on the new components, MAKE SURE everything is as tight as it should be.

That is definitely the plan..........one or more "ooga dooga" is not going to be enough

 

[monrizzle]

Before I read about all the people having DW I had already wanted to make sure I made my front end, better.
I did the Daystar 2" puck lift, Fox smooth body stablizer and Steer Smarts Yeti XD links. I have 315/70s on there and mysteering is pretty smooth up over 80mph.

Ive seen many peple get DW on motorcycles to make sure I know better. lol

 

[tmgarmon]

I'm copying and pasting this here from my post on the JL Forum, where a bunch of folks are exploring the Roadmaster Exact Center Stabilizer. I have no affiliation, I was just frustrated with my JT and found the stabilizer and purchased one. These are my latest observations.



Just a little history and update on my observations of the factory steering assembly and the Exact Center. As you may have read in my earlier posts, I have a 2020 JT. I was thoroughly disgusted with the way the Jeep handled stock, let alone the Death Wobble that started once I put a 2-1/2" leveling kit on it (@8,000mi). Bear in mind that I've driven Jeeps as a daily for 10+ years (TJ & modified JK). So I bit the bullet and started doing some research. First step was to get the TSB done for the steering gear, with no real improvement except for peace of mind. Thinking, so I've already sunk $40+k into this thing, what's $1.5k more.....Purchased the Synergy Tie rod and Drag Link kit, longer shocks for the Leveling and some odds and ends to move the stabilizer along with an Exact Center set at 87# (Thanks John).

I put all of this on last weekend, including the 2-1/4" (shaved from 2-1/2") leveling kit spacers I had previously removed, and took it up to my son's shop for an alignment yesterday.

The settings:
Set Total Toe to 0.3 degrees (Factory is 0.2 +/-0.2)
Caster is at 5 degrees (Factory 2" lift LCA's put it there)
Didn't bother to measure camber, can't do anything anyway.

After a little driving around to set the Exact Center and steering wheel to where they need to be, I proceeded to go out on a 120 mile journey around the greater Phoenix freeway system at 70-80mph looking for every bump and crappy section of road I could find, and we have alot right now with all of the freeway construction going on.

Observations:
I couldn't get the steering to even shimmey......at all. (FYI, Before I did this and had just the leveling kit on, I had DW 3 times over the same roads in one drive)
The steering feel was centered and very responsive, one finger driving.

Preliminary conclusions:
Jeep really screwed up with the design of the steering gear components. Too lightweight and relying on crimp joints between dissimilar metals is the perfect recipe to create harmonic vibration, AKA Death Wobble.
Why hasn't anyone approached Jeep with the idea of the Exact Center Stabilizer? It provides responsive steering with a return-to-center feel that an IFS system has. I had a similar Synergy setup on my old JK that I wheeled here alot. Never had an issue even while slapping it hard on rocks, but it never had the stable, return-to-center feel that this JT now has.

John, I'm going to run the 87# setup for at least a month, just to get fully used to it and see if I can find a situation where more would # be better. After all, I'm still on stock tires.

BTY, anyone out there want a stock tie rod, drag link, front shocks and stabilizer? Free.......Time to get them out of my garage.

Edit: Forgot to add the factory Track bar in there too............Free.

 

[Artsifrtsi]

Are you still running the factory tires? Maybe a weight got knocked off... if the DW comes back, try rotating the tires and see if it goes away...

 

[tmgarmon]

I did check that. Rotated tires too. I'm just happy that some of you do not have the issues that I had. Could have been a defective part. The weak link was definitely in either the tie rod or drag link.

 

[JT1]

I'm copying and pasting this here from my post on the JL Forum, where a bunch of folks are exploring the Roadmaster Exact Center Stabilizer. I have no affiliation, I was just frustrated with my JT and found the stabilizer and purchased one. These are my latest observations.



Just a little history and update on my observations of the factory steering assembly and the Exact Center. As you may have read in my earlier posts, I have a 2020 JT. I was thoroughly disgusted with the way the Jeep handled stock, let alone the Death Wobble that started once I put a 2-1/2" leveling kit on it (@8,000mi). Bear in mind that I've driven Jeeps as a daily for 10+ years (TJ & modified JK). So I bit the bullet and started doing some research. First step was to get the TSB done for the steering gear, with no real improvement except for peace of mind. Thinking, so I've already sunk $40+k into this thing, what's $1.5k more.....Purchased the Synergy Tie rod and Drag Link kit, longer shocks for the Leveling and some odds and ends to move the stabilizer along with an Exact Center set at 87# (Thanks John).

I put all of this on last weekend, including the 2-1/4" (shaved from 2-1/2") leveling kit spacers I had previously removed, and took it up to my son's shop for an alignment yesterday.

The settings:
Set Total Toe to 0.3 degrees (Factory is 0.2 +/-0.2)
Caster is at 5 degrees (Factory 2" lift LCA's put it there)
Didn't bother to measure camber, can't do anything anyway.

After a little driving around to set the Exact Center and steering wheel to where they need to be, I proceeded to go out on a 120 mile journey around the greater Phoenix freeway system at 70-80mph looking for every bump and crappy section of road I could find, and we have alot right now with all of the freeway construction going on.

Observations:
I couldn't get the steering to even shimmey......at all. (FYI, Before I did this and had just the leveling kit on, I had DW 3 times over the same roads in one drive)
The steering feel was centered and very responsive, one finger driving.

Preliminary conclusions:
Jeep really screwed up with the design of the steering gear components. Too lightweight and relying on crimp joints between dissimilar metals is the perfect recipe to create harmonic vibration, AKA Death Wobble.
Why hasn't anyone approached Jeep with the idea of the Exact Center Stabilizer? It provides responsive steering with a return-to-center feel that an IFS system has. I had a similar Synergy setup on my old JK that I wheeled here alot. Never had an issue even while slapping it hard on rocks, but it never had the stable, return-to-center feel that this JT now has.

John, I'm going to run the 87# setup for at least a month, just to get fully used to it and see if I can find a situation where more would # be better. After all, I'm still on stock tires.

BTY, anyone out there want a stock tie rod, drag link, front shocks and stabilizer? Free.......Time to get them out of my garage.

Edit: Forgot to add the factory Track bar in there too............Free.

I ordered a 140# unit myself. 2 lane country roads are about 75% of my driving and big potholes mean bad bumpsteer and a tendency to try to turn off the road if I'm not paying 100% attention.

I had a Fox through shaft on order, but after 90 days and no ETA, I cancelled the order and bought one.

 

[JT1]

I did check that. Rotated tires too. I'm just happy that some of you do not have the issues that I had. Could have been a defective part. The weak link was definetly in either the tie rod or drag link.

Both my drag link and tie rod were under-torqued from the factory. I tightened all 4 balljoints and the entire steering when I had the front apart putting the lift on. Amazing how bad QC at jeep is now.

 

[tmgarmon]

Funny........Did that too....

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Both my drag link and tie rod were under-torqued from the factory. I tightened all 4 balljoints and the entire steering when I had the front apart putting the lift on.

That's a good first place to start any time there are issues as long as all else is checked and ok. Any movement or flexing that shouldn't exist is a problem.

My stock 2020 JT (aside from replacement steering gear) handles and steers fine, no wobble - death or otherwise, no vibrations, no shimmy, tires go down the road like they should.

Any time you modify the height of the front in any way, even so-called "leveling kit" you have modified geometry. Change wheels, change wheel width or size, you change steering geometry.
So like I've posted elsewhere, your truck was modified. Angles, geometry, stresses, all changed. IF anything was tightened with the truck not sitting on the ground also can cause issues.

 

[tmgarmon]

That's a good first place to start any time there are issues as long as all else is checked and ok. Any movement or flexing that shouldn't exist is a problem.

My stock 2020 JT (aside from replacement steering gear) handles and steers fine, no wobble - death or otherwise, no vibrations, no shimmy, tires go down the road like they should.

Any time you modify the height of the front in any way, even so-called "leveling kit" you have modified geometry. Change wheels, change wheel width or size, you change steering geometry.
So like I've posted elsewhere, your truck was modified. Angles, geometry, stresses, all changed. IF anything was tightened with the truck not sitting on the ground also can cause issues.

It is now modified. You're absolutely right. I'm glad you've had no issues. My wife was kinda ticked off that I bought this in the first place, then when I was driving her home from the airport and DW reared it's head, she was like "What the Hell did you do?"

 

[tmgarmon]

Hi all! Another update and looking for some additional advice. Everything above is true, but living in AZ, as the weather heats up tire pressure rises. Allowing the tires to run at the 36 psi that the factory calls for produces Death Wobble. So including the above parts I've added:

TeraFlex 2.5 Lift Front Coil Springs - 1872100 to eliminate the spacers.
TeraFlex Alpine IR Front Lower Adjustable Control Arm Kit - 1416550
Alloy USA Front Coil Spring Isolators - 61002 to replace the stock ones

Still had violent DW with the following settings:

Toe in - .3 degrees (Changed to 0 degrees after, still had DW)
Caster - 7 Degrees
Put the factory Stabilizer back in (after DW without it. Still had it with it)

The Jeep handles beautifully with no wander and very responsive steering, but DW still showes up at the wierdest times unless I drop tire pressure below 30 psi hot. It has the Bridgestone Dueler H/T 685 factory tires on it still. It's going to be a total pain in the a** to maintain tire pressure in such a limited range as the weather continues to warm up here.

Essentially, the only factory front end parts left are:

Upper control Arms
Ball Joints
Tires

So, I've reached my limit of expertise. The Jeep just turned 10,000 mi.
In this experiment it has had DW occur at least 10 times. All just to get it to sit level.
I'm thinking the last ditch effort will be to purchase a set of Rubi Takeoffs. The Overland 18" rims really limit your tire purchase options.

We have some really good Jeep shops here in AZ. I may have them take a look, but there's really not anything different that I have done that they will.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Artsifrtsi]

Did you try loosening the control arm bolts, and retorquing them to spec with the weight of the vehicle on the tires at ride height? You may also have a tire out of balance, try rotating fronts to rear and see if that follows.

I never set my toe based on an angle... 1/8 to 1/4 inch toe in based off of the outer diameter of the tire. Best method pictured, as it will take out imperfections of the tire, and possibility of bent rim...

 

[tmgarmon]

Lowers were done with the Jeep on the ground. Good point! Uppers were not! I should try that.
That's 4 springs working against the lift!
BTY, nice alignment setup

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