Overland - I’m sure it’s been asked before (apologies in advance)

[jurfie]

Regarding tires, I like the aggressive look, but not willing to put up with road noise to get it. Definitely do not want the high weight of the popular knobby tires that many on this forum seem to choose. Not willing to give up fuel economy for the heavier tires.

So the stock all season are fine for me now, while the JT is a daily driver. When they wear out, I plan to get something like the Continental Terrain Contact. Slightly aggressive, but relatively quiet and definitely not heavy.

Yes, I really like my Overland.

If you want a bit more aggressive-looking tire that also has the 3-mountain peak snow rating, take a look at KO2s. I was surprised how quiet and smooth they ride..

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[olecarguy]

How much does wheel diameter vs tire diameter affect this issue? Thinking back to when I had my TJ it was very common to run 33x12.5 or 35x12.5 on 15x8 wheels. I ran 33s on mine with 15x8 soft 8s and never had an issue with tread bulge (wrangler duratracs). I also have a coworker running 35x12.5 wildpeak A/Ts on stock JK rubicon wheels without treat wear concoerns. I can see running a lower profile tire with a stiffer sidewall causing more of a problem but I do not have first hand experience with it. When looking at wheels for the JT most aftermarket 17s are 8.5"+ which covers that base.

Out of curiosity as well, how long ago did you own the tire business? I'm wondering if tire technology has progressed and if this is now more or less of a concern than it was in the past

How much does wheel diameter vs tire diameter affect this issue? Thinking back to when I had my TJ it was very common to run 33x12.5 or 35x12.5 on 15x8 wheels. I ran 33s on mine with 15x8 soft 8s and never had an issue with tread bulge (wrangler duratracs). I also have a coworker running 35x12.5 wildpeak A/Ts on stock JK rubicon wheels without treat wear concoerns. I can see running a lower profile tire with a stiffer sidewall causing more of a problem but I do not have first hand experience with it. When looking at wheels for the JT most aftermarket 17s are 8.5"+ which covers that base.

Out of curiosity as well, how long ago did you own the tire business? I'm wondering if tire technology has progressed and if this is now more or less of a concern than it was in the past

Hi AnavinIV, A couple of data points in response to your post.

1) I've been officially out of the tire retail business for 10 years. However, I still own equipment, do all of my own work, maintain contacts with suppliers, manufacturers, get newsletters and other tire professional communications, keeping up with the industry. Additionally, beyond being an educated and practicing engineer like you prior to retiring, I also held TIA (Tire Industry Association) Instructor Certification. Coincidental to all of this, I've also been engaged in the research environment working with both US, Asian, and Foreign Auto manufactuers, Michelin, and Pirelli. I'm not offering this information to be insolent or boastful, but to provide you with a solid baseline of my credentials in offering an opinion. When it comes to tire knowledge, IMO, I am more than the average guy. In wanting to he humble I don't normally share this information bout but since you asked about my connection to tire technology I offer it. I hope this doesn't come off badly, but its not about the change in tire technology as much as it is in understanding the current design data/parameters and remaining within. This keeps one in sync with the changing technology.

2) You point out a good fact, a taller tire sidewall will have a tendency to lessen the crowning affect. But there are other factors to consider as well, primarily, air pressures. Lower air pressures can reduce or eliminate crowning. In fact, one can have too low a pressure and concave the tire center actually causing the center of the tire center to fail to contact the road. Many on this site mention the chalk test to check pattern contact. Assuming this doesn't happen, and the tire remains flat with reduced air pressure one also decreases the load carrying capacity of any tire, amongst other tire performance parameters. As i understand it, this was the exact issue with Ford and Firestone with the Explorers many years ago. The vehicle failed the rollover test. To pass they lowered tire air pressure to pass the test by lowering the vehicle center of gravity. In doing so, when people heavily loaded the vehicle it caused sidewall failures because of the lower pressures cut into the safety margins of the tire weight rating design criteria. In such in this litigious society one needs to be mindful of the various design criteria and when making changes outside of the established criteria one much do so with prudence based on the appropriate data, especially as a business. When the consumer does this, they own the liability. My point being, many people do things which seem to work, but are they really on the edge of proper engineering design? I could put a 35" by 12 on a 7" wheel, it will fit, lower pressures a bit to reduce crown, perhaps. But I would ask, why do you think that every tire manufacturer recommends a 8.5" min, 10" ideal, or 11 max width for a 35 x 12.5" tire? As you pointed out, aftermarket 17" wheels offered as a 8.5" or 10" wide wheel, but not 8" wide wheel, why is that?

3) All tires have several ratings. For this discussion let's just focus on the weight ratings say 108, 113, 166, XL, C, D, E, on and on, depending on the tire. The vehicle engineers based on the load capacity, max rated speed, corning parameters, etc. of the vehicle determine which tire size and associated ratings are best designed for the vehicle. If an appropriate tire isn't available they will work to manufacturers to develop needed tires and compounds. As you've keenly pointed out, look at the explosion in tire development in the last 10+ years to keep up with the Auto Industry. However, one thing remain constant. There are inflation vs load tables for every tire. When changing tires one needs to use these tables to appropriately determine what pressures to use based on the original tire placards posted on the door frame of the vehicle in question and the associated loads and pressures for that tire. Case in point. So, if I put a 35 x 12.5 x 17 on my Gladiator, which used a 255x70x18 113 load rating, on a 8" wide wheel at 38PSI, that tire has a weight rating of 2542lbs. Its, moving to a 35x12.5x17, I need to move to a D rated tire minimally, since a C rated tire maxes out at 2405lb capacity. As D rated tire, to get to the needed 2542lbs, I need to run a pressure of 38-39 PSI. If I move to E rated tires, these pressure change again. For the D, this is right at the factory spec matching the 255/70/18 in both weight capacity and pressure. Now with this pressure, and on an 8" wheel, which is NOT recommended by the tire manufacturer, will the center crown and cause premature wear, voiding the mileage warranty, most likely.

Anyway, thanks for the questions and for reading through this long response....cheers.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Over-simplifying one of the points above - when people randomly lower tire pressure due to "it feels better", and other reasons, and ignore the tire manufacturers' inflation chart recommendations (and they have engineers, too) - the vehicle owner is stating they know better than engineers who design said tires and stand behind them. Further - pressures lower than recommended may cause tire destruction due to excessive flexing of the sidewall. This causes the components in the tire sidewall to rub and flex, building up heat. Now you have wear due to flexing and heat which is destructive to almost everything in the tire, especially the rubber compounds.
Racing slicks are made to withstand immense flex and twist - tires for the road/highway, not so much.
So you put wide tires on a narrow rim, lower the pressure to compensate, you have the tire operating at abnormal shapes and angles, introduce much more flex, sidewall components rubbing and flexing, and more heat.

I really enjoy seeing all of the "I know better than tire makers" stuff.
"but it works" - sure - until it doesn't.
"but I get 50,000 miles!" - yeah, maybe you could have gotten 60 or 70,000 miles, had better grip on the road....... and of course you don't care about that until some fool cuts you off or skips a stop sign and YOU need to stop.

Frankly, the asking others "how much should I inflate my tires to" should ALWAYS be answered with: "if they are stock, read the sticker on the door frame" + "go to the tire maker's web site and follow the inflation tables, based on the actual weight of YOUR truck".
My truck may weigh more or less than yours - so all I can give is what _I_ run based on the weight of MY truck.
Any other response should be taken as a "starting point" and nothing else.

 

[anavrinIV]

Hi AnavinIV, A couple of data points in response to your post.

[Lots of words and a very well explained point]

Thanks for the detailed answer, I was not trying to question your credentials but I do understand that not keeping up with technological changes means one can provide old and/or outdated information (I run across this often). Hence my question on timeline.

Your points are well taken. I tangentially understand a bit about tires and ratings but would never claim to be an expert on the topic. Part of the issue is limited data available to the public, most of whom would not understand the details anyway, that leave my engineer brain feeling a bit fuzzy about how all the parameters work together

 

[olecarguy]

Thanks for the detailed answer, I was not trying to question your credentials but I do understand that not keeping up with technological changes means one can provide old and/or outdated information (I run across this often). Hence my question on timeline.

Your points are well taken. I tangentially understand a bit about tires and ratings but would never claim to be an expert on the topic. Part of the issue is limited data available to the public, most of whom would not understand the details anyway, that leave my engineer brain feeling a bit fuzzy about how all the parameters work together

No insult or any negative thoughts perceived on my end in your questioning. Yours was a perfectly valid question. I hesitated to respond with all that "credential stuff" for fear that I might think you offended me or worse offend you. However, I felt it was important to offer my credentials only to help to aid in supporting that my opinions on tire selection, pressures etc. are based on more that of the occasional poster. Too many times information is posted and well...".if its on the internet it must be true". I agree most folks don't know about all the parameters so they operate under "an ignorance is bliss" approach until it all goes wrong. Don't feel bad about having an engineering brain "feeling a bit fuzzy about how it all goes together". When I saw you listed yourself as an engineer I saw this as an opportunity to teach a bit on how it all does fit together to someone who has the educational background to understand, and appreciate the information offered.

 

[punk'n]

Late to the party, but I've been very happy so far with my Overland.

I was looking for what I "perceived" as a more comfortable ride. I was also limited to some degree as I only wanted Punk'n and since it was discontinued, I had to move quickly to grab one I liked.

I have no plans for hard core off-roading (did that with my FJ40 when I lived out west), so it should fit my needs very well (snow, light trails etc.). I also didn't need any extra height and my wife has asked me not to lift it so its easier for her to get in. Of course, a few personal updates to make it "mine" were in order.

The real decision on what model to get is a personal one based on many things... cost, looks, options, type of use, capabilities etc.

 

[DreamedofaJeepSomeday]

OK, I gotta ask. My 2020 Overland has a plaque lower right tailgate. Yours has a decal. Is that 2021 change, or your own doing? Same question about the classic Jeep 4 Wheel Drive decal.

 

[DreamedofaJeepSomeday]

. . . I felt it was important to offer my credentials only to help to aid in supporting that my opinions on tire selection, pressures etc.

For me, a tire consumer, the only thing I differ with what the tire experts say is about plugs. No shop will put them in nowadays, and even the package they come in says "for temporary repairs only" or something like that. I have used plugs for decades, with never a failure or air leak.

 

[punk'n]

OK, I gotta ask. My 2020 Overland has a plaque lower right tailgate. Yours has a decal. Is that 2021 change, or your own doing? Same question about the classic Jeep 4 Wheel Drive decal.

Mine also came with the silver oval OVERLAND plaque. But, after adding the black Hauk Offroad GLADIATOR badging, I didn't like look of the silver oval. So, I found the raised OVERLAND in black.

I got it from Motobadge:
https://motobadge.com/collections/custom-badges/products/345-hemi-badge

The 4 wheel drive I got off ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-4-Whe...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

[DreamedofaJeepSomeday]

Mine also came with the silver oval OVERLAND plaque. But, after adding the black Hauk Offroad GLADIATOR badging, I didn't like look of the silver oval. So, I found the raised OVERLAND in black.

I got it from Motobadge:
https://motobadge.com/collections/custom-badges/products/345-hemi-badge

The 4 wheel drive I got off ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-4-Wheel-Drive-WILLYS-Tailgate-Decal-CJ3A-CJ3B-CJ2A-CJ5-M38-GPW-sticker/264879700987?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Thanks!

 

[olecarguy]

For me, a tire consumer, the only thing I differ with what the tire experts say is about plugs. No shop will put them in nowadays, and even the package they come in says "for temporary repairs only" or something like that. I have used plugs for decades, with never a failure or air leak.

As I mentioned, I've seen all kinds of combinations, maybe I should have added, "and all kinds of things done". Many years ago I too would plug a tire from the outside, like the ones you mention. . But my comment about it's all OK until it fails still holds. Some may experience failure some may not, it doesn't make it safe and the data behind the decision not too do it supports this.

Also, technology there is legitimate rationale about NOT using the old style plug from the outside, primarily associated with the use of steel belts within tread of newer tires. Your a civil engineer and can appreciate that when the tire rotates it flexes to conform to the road and then unflexes as it rotates around, this movement causes the sharp edges of the broken metal belt fibers to shift back and forth acting like a saw which will, and has demonstrated, cut the plug. So now there's a plug in the tire which is only bonded by the outer portion of the tire tread and it has 35-45 PSI behind it as it continues to flex and get hot.

The proper path is to use a modern day plug which looks something like a mushroom or T with a round cap. The tire needs to be dismounted, inner surface roughed and cleaned, the penetration needs to be reamed to the specific size for the plug, and then glued and the plug installed and rolled into place on the inner surface. Now, if for odd some reason the belts cut the stem, its backed upped by the cap or patch part on the inside which is being forced into the repair by the tire air pressure.

The only caveat to this process is if the damage is within 1" of the sidewall. Here there is too much flex and any repair is dangerous.

Can anyone repair these which old style patches and plugs, sure. I just hope that no-one I know or me is not traveling opposite coming towards or adjacent when it lets go and they loose control. Shit happens, usually for a reason.

 

[punk'n]

Cool looking ride!. I've been looking at the 4 wheel sticker but like you didn't like to mismatch. Thanks for this!

What size/type tires are those?

Although I prefer the Overland wheel, I wanted a wider and more aggressive looking tire. So, I was looking into replacement tires for the stock rim. But I ended up I grabbing a set of OEM Rubicon take-offs when they popped up 3 minutes from my house (Wildpeak 285/70R17).

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As I mentioned, I've seen all kinds of combinations, maybe I should have added, "and all kinds of things done". Many years ago I too would plug a tire from the outside, like the ones you mention. . But my comment about it's all OK until it fails still holds. Some may experience failure some may not, it doesn't make it safe and the data behind the decision not too do it supports this.

Also, technology there is legitimate rationale about NOT using the old style plug from the outside, primarily associated with the use of steel belts within tread of newer tires. Your a civil engineer and can appreciate that when the tire rotates it flexes to conform to the road and then unflexes as it rotates around, this movement causes the sharp edges of the broken metal belt fibers to shift back and forth acting like a saw which will, and has demonstrated, cut the plug. So now there's a plug in the tire which is only bonded by the outer portion of the tire tread and it has 35-45 PSI behind it as it continues to flex and get hot.

The proper path is to use a modern day plug which looks something like a mushroom or T with a round cap. The tire needs to be dismounted, inner surface roughed and cleaned, the penetration needs to be reamed to the specific size for the plug, and then glued and the plug installed and rolled into place on the inner surface. Now, if for odd some reason the belts cut the stem, its backed upped by the cap or patch part on the inside which is being forced into the repair by the tire air pressure.

The only caveat to this process is if the damage is within 1" of the sidewall. Here there is too much flex and any repair is dangerous.

Can anyone repair these which old style patches and plugs, sure. I just hope that no-one I know or me is not traveling opposite coming towards or adjacent when it lets go and they loose control. Shit happens, usually for a reason.

Wow, now you have me asking a question on tire plugs.
In the 1970s, I worked at a shop that had been part of a "Rambler" dealership. After the owner stopped dealing new cars, he let his head guy keep the shop going for general repair. We sold tires - Cooper and others. This was when radials were a new-fangled thing and boy inserting those old-fashioned plugs into those was a beaner for sure. You could hear the steel grinding against the tool as you shoved the plug in.
Then the boss got a new-fangled tool that made it easier and made the repair more reliable - a gun that "shot" a mushroom shaped plug into the tire. The head got inside and expanded and pressure shoved the mushroom head against the inside of the tire. It was a mini-patch and plug all in one mushroom shape. The ones I recall were sort of orangish - maybe they were colored according to size or something. The "gun" was a metal gun with a nozzle you unscrewed, you doped up the plug, inserted it into the nozzle, put the nozzle back on and you pulled the trigger as you removed the nozzle from the hole in the tire you were plugging.
OK, maybe my description is off a bit, but I do recall using plugs with a mushroom shape. The next shop I worked at after college didn't sell tires but we did repair them, balanced, etc. and if someone needed tires, we went to our warehouse and picked them up and installed them. We didn't stock tires, we'd get what the customer wanted. (I can recall that boss buying a fancy new balancer, too - this was early 1980-81.)
Back then - late 70s, etc. - I recall the boss saying he liked the plugs, too, as they helped keep crud from getting into the layers of the tread and getting the steel belts wet and so on - he'd do patch and plug if a customer was willing, he liked the patch inside covering the larger area and you KNEW it was clean and adhered, and he liked the plug sealing the tread area, too.

I prefer the patch sealing a larger part of the now compromised tire - but also appreciate a way to seal the layers of tread against water and stuff getting in.

Although I prefer the Overland wheel, I wanted a wider and more aggressive looking tire. So, I was looking into replacement tires for the stock rim. But I ended up I grabbing a set of OEM Rubicon take-offs when they popped up 3 minutes from my house (Wildpeak 285/70R17).

I didn't necessarily want to get rid of my stock Overland tires - I owned them, I knew I'd not get any real money out of them, they ride nice, good mpg with them, but I needed a winter tire - SNOW RATED, for our area.
A set of take-offs came up blocks from where a friend lives in Omaha. He said he'd pick them up for me to ensure that I got them, and to look at them so if there was a problem, I'd know before a long trip. My friend had some large (12') AMC dealership signs for me anyway - good excuse to go over and get them.
Anyway, I like the Overland wheels a LOT, but needed something for winter, so I switch - nice since I get the WAVE rotation to handle that for me for now. I haul my other wheels/tires in, they swap, then next season I take it in and they swap back. Once my Overland HT tires are worn, I'll buy something like you guys are running on your OVerland rims - some sort of snow rated A/T tire. I found out those HT tires aren't all that great for our winters (almost the hard way) and they definitely aren't snow-rated tires.
I sold and gave away some of my antique engines so I have room to store the extra wheels with tires so that's not a problem.

 

[DreamedofaJeepSomeday]

I just hope that no-one I know or me is not traveling opposite coming towards or adjacent when it lets go and they lose control. Shit happens, usually for a reason.

I am plugging nail or screw holes; it is a slow leak because the nail or screw is still in it. If the plug begins to leak, I've still got a leak, not a blow-out. But like I said, I've never had a leak from one.

Yes, I am a civil/structural engineer. As such, I know there are many construction methods that work, but are not allowed by code. Why? Usually the reason is that the method is not clearly defined as to strength; the strength depends on the skill of the workman.

On the other hand, the code does allow performance-based solutions where the engineer can demonstrate they meet requirements.

A lot of otherwise good products have been removed from the marketplace because of a few isolated incidents. Not saying that is the case for tire plugs - you are the expert on those. They are still for sale everywhere, so I doubt if they are all that dangerous.

The cynical part of me notes that removing the tire from rim, patching inside, re-installing and perhaps also re-balancing is a lot more remunerative than installing a plug from the outside.

 

[olecarguy]

I am plugging nail or screw holes; it is a slow leak because the nail or screw is still in it. If the plug begins to leak, I've still got a leak, not a blow-out. But like I said, I've never had a leak from one.

Yes, I am a civil/structural engineer. As such, I know there are many construction methods that work, but are not allowed by code. Why? Usually the reason is that the method is not clearly defined as to strength; the strength depends on the skill of the workman.

On the other hand, the code does allow performance-based solutions where the engineer can demonstrate they meet requirements.

A lot of otherwise good products have been removed from the marketplace because of a few isolated incidents. Not saying that is the case for tire plugs - you are the expert on those. They are still for sale everywhere, so I doubt if they are all that dangerous.

The cynical part of me notes that removing the tire from rim, patching inside, re-installing and perhaps also re-balancing is a lot more remunerative than installing a plug from the outside.

It's not the slow leak that causes the blow out or problem, it's the low pressure when the tire is driven on and the tire reaches below the required load rating that creates the blow out, typically from an overstressed sidewall. I've personally seen tires run low pressure, but still "drivable" in the eyes of the customer and run for short distances having .5 to 1lb of rubber beads in them from the internal surface of the tire as it degrades from heat and flex. Today we have TPMS to warn people of the low pressures. That doesn't mean everyone heeds the warning. Frankly, the situation I illustrate is way TPMS is a mandate. So, back to your original point of "For me, a tire consumer, the only thing I differ with what the tire experts say is about plugs. No shop will put them in nowadays, and even the package they come in says "for temporary repairs only" or something like that." It's not safe, hence a liability, and not worth the risk for the business, nor me personally to "plug" a tire using those kits sold for ATV or other off-road tires. However, in a pinch when running off-road, it's perfectly acceptable since this is low speed, low/no traffic situations. , Furthermore, its not about renumeration, most larger tire dealers will remove the tire and repair it for "free" hoping to draw in a new customer.... it's about safety in eliminating a very common ticking Cheers! Hope this helps to convert you in avoiding risky home grown plugging.

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