(Solved) Dealer Deposit Refund on Botched Order

[flsupraguy]

Gotta disagree here. Realtors do much more than that. Sure, some people don't need a realtor and don't use one. They go through their own attorneys to draw up paperwork. But for the vast majority, the realtor provides services well beyond just "a list of houses" that without, the deal would fall apart.

If you ever buy a house and don't have to talk to anyone in between making the offer and signing at closing, your realtor has made that possible.

Sounds like a realtor talking lol The importance is the title company and title insurance.

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[sharpsicle]

Sounds like a realtor talking lol The importance is the title company and title insurance.

Nope, I am not a realtor. But I know enough about what they do to see the value in people using them. And it goes beyond just title issues as well.

Why do you always assume what you clearly don't know?

 

[flsupraguy]

Nope, I am not a realtor. But I know enough about what they do to see the value in people using them. And it goes beyond just title issues as well.

Why do you always assume what you clearly don't know?

LOL I'm a licensed realtor. I said "sounds" like realtor talk. I stick to the commercial side because the residential side is consumed with house wife's that have no clue what they are doing.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Nope, I am not a realtor. But I know enough about what they do to see the value in people using them. And it goes beyond just title issues as well.

Why do you always assume what you clearly don't know?

Realtor stepped in, like I said, on the well issue (took care of some legal stuff without further charge) and would have been handy in a contract dispute when the woman backed out on the purchase. Luckily, our attorney charged a flat fee that was really cheap.

 

[MDPensFan]

I guess the appropriate answer is, like for most things in life, is 'It depends.' For my vehicle purchase I did my research, knew exactly what I wanted and what I was comfortable paying, and executed a transaction with one of the discount volume dealers on here. It will take some additional logistical planning and steps to pick up my Gladiator and get it home, but it was worth it to me. For a lot of car buyers, they go to the dealership and then figure out what they want. The existing business model works for them.

I bought my last property without the use of a realtor. It was a straight forward transaction, I had our attorney handle the legal stuff, I saved money and the seller didn't have to fork over 30k in unnecessary realtor fees. It worked for me but, again, I can see where realtors work for most. The ability to have choices is what makes it work for everyone. I hope more dealers follow the Gupton/Chapman/Koons model. Your regular, local, shyster dealership (like mine) will only adjust when they are faced with legitimate competition.

 

[FutureOdin]

Dealers in the NE area seem to suck in general. I just negotiated with Central Jeep in Raynham, and was able to get a decent discount. Everywhere else will tell you to pound sand.

 

[sunrise089]

I don't disagree, but I didn't have the proof with me as I didn't think I would need it after being told to come in and get my deposit back.

I gotcha. Anyways again your dealer sucks, and best of luck going through the card issuer to try to get the funds back. I wasn't trying to pile on, I just wanted to try to offer my perspective in case someone else has a similar issue down the road.

 

[sunrise089]

Real property is a whole different ball game. Having someone knowledgeable to guide you through the process is well worth it.

I agree! But I thought we were talking about realtors

Okay, I'm done being an a-hole in this thread, but I've been thinking about the realtor thing since this morning and I don't want to go to bed, so I'll try to engage with @sharpsicle and anyone else who wants to try to expand my mind or correct my ignorance here.

My realtor perspective is basically this: they certainly put in hours and do work. And, it's not their fault most fall under a brokerage system where someone is taking 50% off the top while oftentimes in 2021 providing little value-add to their downstream agents. But realtor pay being tied to home prices, alongside technological innovations, and then further alongside increased specialization in the homebuying space, have left realtors in a position where their effective hourly wage seems wildly out of proportion to both the scarcity (or lack therefore) of their own skillset as well as the value they provide to buyers.

I don't expect a realtor to come out and say "yeah, I don't really do anything of value," but I do think it's interesting most of their arguments rest on platitudes ("your home will be your most expensive purchase, you should protect it"), fear ("what if there's an issue and no one catches it"), emotion ("you deserve someone in your corner to help and be there for you"), or the ultimate damning-with-faint-praise comment ("as a buyer the seller pays us so you have nothing to lose').

Once you strip down the platitudes though I think it's interesting what the realtor does, but more importantly what they DON'T do. The stuff they don't do almost always has far more direct and transparent pricing while, IMHO, requiring far more specialized skills and/or taking on more legal exposure than the realtor's role in the transaction. So here's what our realtor does not do (this is from the perspective of a buyer as I think the seller's agent case is even weaker and I'm trying to be somewhat charitable here):

*In 2021 realtors often don't help locate prospective homes - I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are some esoteric property classes where their network is vital, but with the MLS being ubiquitous and access to it being free information has been democratized to such a degree that buyers can do their own initial research on what homes to visit.

*Realtors don't write contracts - Writing legal contracts is hard and risky, doing so correctly is a valuable skill. That explains while realtors have drafted industry standard boilerplate contracts which reduce the contracting process to a handful of toggles and fill-in-the blanks. I bought a home in 2020 and the entire contract only had something like a dozen variables beyond the name and description of the property, most of them were binary either/or choices, and all of them were either obvious, explained in the text, or easily explained by 5 minutes on Google. In addition, and I swear I'm not making this up, the seller's realtor had a typo in the legal description which I had to catch and correct for her.

*Realtors don't assess the quality or condition of homes - Realtors like to tout their experience seeing lots of homes, but when it comes to actionable "this is broken," "this will need to be replaced" type advice realtors outsource this to outside professional home inspection companies with their own required certifications. My veteran inspector performed four different types of inspections, spent about three hours on property, and then sent over a thorough PDF packet with all of his finding the next day, for about $700.

*Realtors don't asses creditworthiness or otherwise handle the financial side of the home buying process - Realtors can certainly put you in touch with a mortgage broker or bank, but once that connection is made all of the further dialog with respect to income, interest and rate locks, underwriting contingencies, etc., is all handled by the lending institution. My lender charged $0 for their loan (application fee, etc., was all refunded since I initiated transaction online) though of course they're making plenty of cash off the interest over the years.

*Realtors don't appraise properties - Again realtors claim to be experts on pricing, but when it comes to pricing data needed for financing and insurance they outsource that role to professional property appraisers. My appraiser, again bonded and certified, charged $513.

*Realtors don't provide the bulk of legal protections for the deal - Realtors may have lots of knowledge about a property, but when it comes to warrantying said property they again outsource to professional title search and title insurance agencies. My agency conducted a survey to warrantee the description (I bought acreage, otherwise this isn't necessary) and performed title and flood searches and warranted their results, and charged a total of $2,915, most of which was for the insurance policy.

*Realtors don't handle the nuts and bolts of the actual closing - Again realtors see many closings, but when it comes to the actual document preparation, signature collections, and payment disbursement they again outsource to a dedicated title closing company. I paid $539 all-in including various wire fees.

Okay, so that established, what do realtors do directly then? As best I can tell they:

*Suggest homes (optional) - A realtor can certainly offer suggestions. I think it's dubious that those suggestions would be better than what one could come up by oneself, but they can make them if requested. Hourly commitment: 1 hour browsing MLS. Fair hourly wage: $150, very generously, treating them as a skilled white collar professional. Realtor value-add: $0-$150

*Coordinate showings - This is the element which is the most different when using a realtor versus not. When buying with a realtor you call your agent and ask to see house X. Without a realtor you call the selling agent and ask to see house X. The time-saver of the realtor comes from if you want to see many houses you can make all your requests at once while the realtor then has to make a series of calls. Hourly commitment: 1-3 hours working phones. Fair hourly wage: $30, again very generously, treating them as a skilled office worker. Realistically one could easily hire a college kid for half that rate and give them a list of 10 homes and tell them to call the listing agent and make appointments. Realtor value-add: $30-90.

*Hiring vendors - The lending bank, appraiser, inspector, and title/closing place all need to be signed up. Again talking to the realtor about inspectors doesn't actually save that much time versus calling inspectors directly, but again we're trying to be charitable. Hourly commitment: 2 hours working phones. Fair hourly wage: $30, treating them again as a skilled office worker. Realtor value-add: $60.

*Home quality/pricing advice - Realtors claim to have an inside track here. I question what exactly that track would look like. When viewing a property with a realtor 90% of the relevant questions would be answered from the MLS listing and/or Zillow, the country property tax website, or from Google maps. There is, frankly, a reason the realtor isn't working as a property appraiser or inspector already, but instead has buyers pay for those services separately. Something close to 100% of issues with a home are either obvious ("how many bedrooms does it have?"), freely available in 30 seconds on Zillow ("when was it built?" "how many sq ft is it?" "what are similar comps") or are hidden enough where a true professional is needed to find them which again you pay for separately. Hourly commitment: 15 minutes max per home, it's literally pulling up three websites on a phone. Fair hourly wage: $30, treating them again as a skilled office worker. Realtor value-add: depends on the number of homes but I'll set at half the value of the professional appraisal, so $255.

*Hondholding - The one time I've heard a realtor openly admit they weren't offering a ton of value to many homebuyers, their main counter is other buyers need an enormous amount of handholding. From wanting to tour an excessive number of similar homes, to calling with questions about every step of the process, to asking for daily updates, this is a grind with some buyers. I sympathize. I just don't agree that streamlined buyers should be paying a flat fee to subsidize the handholders. Hourly commitment: 20 hours on retainer. Fair hourly wage: $50, using the higher value to emphasize their acquired knowledge. Realtor value-add: $1,000. NOTE: I'm being super generous here, since many buyers have bought a home before, or have a generous friend or family member who has and will help you navigate the process, or failing that the seller's agent can do most of the same stuff with no real penalty to you (for showing they're going to be more knowledgeable anyways, and they'll certainly keep you in the loop re: timing and required next steps).

Realtor total value-add above: $1,555. Realtor commission on $200k home: $6,000. Commission on $500k home: $15,000.

With my numbers, and again at times I think I'm actually being pretty generous, realtor pricing is something like 300% to 1,000% inflated over a fair market hourly wage for services provided. Put another way, the realtor is asking for more than the banker (directly), appraiser, inspector, title insurer, or closer, combined. And yet of all those entities the realtor has the lowest fixed costs, requires the least training, and has the lowest legal exposure.

Anyways I'm engaging with this discussion because I do value hearing other perspectives. Can anyone make the case to me, on an hourly wage basis, how the realtor is providing service to a buyer commiserate with what they charge?

 

[sharpsicle]

I agree! But I thought we were talking about realtors

Okay, I'm done being an a-hole in this thread, but I've been thinking about the realtor thing since this morning and I don't want to go to bed, so I'll try to engage with @sharpsicle and anyone else who wants to try to expand my mind or correct my ignorance here.

My realtor perspective is basically this: they certainly put in hours and do work. And, it's not their fault most fall under a brokerage system where someone is taking 50% off the top while oftentimes in 2021 providing little value-add to their downstream agents. But realtor pay being tied to home prices, alongside technological innovations, and then further alongside increased specialization in the homebuying space, have left realtors in a position where their effective hourly wage seems wildly out of proportion to both the scarcity (or lack therefore) of their own skillset as well as the value they provide to buyers.

I don't expect a realtor to come out and say "yeah, I don't really do anything of value," but I do think it's interesting most of their arguments rest on platitudes ("your home will be your most expensive purchase, you should protect it"), fear ("what if there's an issue and no one catches it"), emotion ("you deserve someone in your corner to help and be there for you"), or the ultimate damning-with-faint-praise comment ("as a buyer the seller pays us so you have nothing to lose').

Once you strip down the platitudes though I think it's interesting what the realtor does, but more importantly what they DON'T do. The stuff they don't do almost always has far more direct and transparent pricing while, IMHO, requiring far more specialized skills and/or taking on more legal exposure than the realtor's role in the transaction. So here's what our realtor does not do (this is from the perspective of a buyer as I think the seller's agent case is even weaker and I'm trying to be somewhat charitable here):

*In 2021 realtors often don't help locate prospective homes - I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are some esoteric property classes where their network is vital, but with the MLS being ubiquitous and access to it being free information has been democratized to such a degree that buyers can do their own initial research on what homes to visit.

*Realtors don't write contracts - Writing legal contracts is hard and risky, doing so correctly is a valuable skill. That explains while realtors have drafted industry standard boilerplate contracts which reduce the contracting process to a handful of toggles and fill-in-the blanks. I bought a home in 2020 and the entire contract only had something like a dozen variables beyond the name and description of the property, most of them were binary either/or choices, and all of them were either obvious, explained in the text, or easily explained by 5 minutes on Google. In addition, and I swear I'm not making this up, the seller's realtor had a typo in the legal description which I had to catch and correct for her.

*Realtors don't assess the quality or condition of homes - Realtors like to tout their experience seeing lots of homes, but when it comes to actionable "this is broken," "this will need to be replaced" type advice realtors outsource this to outside professional home inspection companies with their own required certifications. My veteran inspector performed four different types of inspections, spent about three hours on property, and then sent over a thorough PDF packet with all of his finding the next day, for about $700.

*Realtors don't asses creditworthiness or otherwise handle the financial side of the home buying process - Realtors can certainly put you in touch with a mortgage broker or bank, but once that connection is made all of the further dialog with respect to income, interest and rate locks, underwriting contingencies, etc., is all handled by the lending institution. My lender charged $0 for their loan (application fee, etc., was all refunded since I initiated transaction online) though of course they're making plenty of cash off the interest over the years.

*Realtors don't appraise properties - Again realtors claim to be experts on pricing, but when it comes to pricing data needed for financing and insurance they outsource that role to professional property appraisers. My appraiser, again bonded and certified, charged $513.

*Realtors don't provide the bulk of legal protections for the deal - Realtors may have lots of knowledge about a property, but when it comes to warrantying said property they again outsource to professional title search and title insurance agencies. My agency conducted a survey to warrantee the description (I bought acreage, otherwise this isn't necessary) and performed title and flood searches and warranted their results, and charged a total of $2,915, most of which was for the insurance policy.

*Realtors don't handle the nuts and bolts of the actual closing - Again realtors see many closings, but when it comes to the actual document preparation, signature collections, and payment disbursement they again outsource to a dedicated title closing company. I paid $539 all-in including various wire fees.

Okay, so that established, what do realtors do directly then? As best I can tell they:

*Suggest homes (optional) - A realtor can certainly offer suggestions. I think it's dubious that those suggestions would be better than what one could come up by oneself, but they can make them if requested. Hourly commitment: 1 hour browsing MLS. Fair hourly wage: $150, very generously, treating them as a skilled white collar professional. Realtor value-add: $0-$150

*Coordinate showings - This is the element which is the most different when using a realtor versus not. When buying with a realtor you call your agent and ask to see house X. Without a realtor you call the selling agent and ask to see house X. The time-saver of the realtor comes from if you want to see many houses you can make all your requests at once while the realtor then has to make a series of calls. Hourly commitment: 1-3 hours working phones. Fair hourly wage: $30, again very generously, treating them as a skilled office worker. Realistically one could easily hire a college kid for half that rate and give them a list of 10 homes and tell them to call the listing agent and make appointments. Realtor value-add: $30-90.

*Hiring vendors - The lending bank, appraiser, inspector, and title/closing place all need to be signed up. Again talking to the realtor about inspectors doesn't actually save that much time versus calling inspectors directly, but again we're trying to be charitable. Hourly commitment: 2 hours working phones. Fair hourly wage: $30, treating them again as a skilled office worker. Realtor value-add: $60.

*Home quality/pricing advice - Realtors claim to have an inside track here. I question what exactly that track would look like. When viewing a property with a realtor 90% of the relevant questions would be answered from the MLS listing and/or Zillow, the country property tax website, or from Google maps. There is, frankly, a reason the realtor isn't working as a property appraiser or inspector already, but instead has buyers pay for those services separately. Something close to 100% of issues with a home are either obvious ("how many bedrooms does it have?"), freely available in 30 seconds on Zillow ("when was it built?" "how many sq ft is it?" "what are similar comps") or are hidden enough where a true professional is needed to find them which again you pay for separately. Hourly commitment: 15 minutes max per home, it's literally pulling up three websites on a phone. Fair hourly wage: $30, treating them again as a skilled office worker. Realtor value-add: depends on the number of homes but I'll set at half the value of the professional appraisal, so $255.

*Hondholding - The one time I've heard a realtor openly admit they weren't offering a ton of value to many homebuyers, their main counter is other buyers need an enormous amount of handholding. From wanting to tour an excessive number of similar homes, to calling with questions about every step of the process, to asking for daily updates, this is a grind with some buyers. I sympathize. I just don't agree that streamlined buyers should be paying a flat fee to subsidize the handholders. Hourly commitment: 20 hours on retainer. Fair hourly wage: $50, using the higher value to emphasize their acquired knowledge. Realtor value-add: $1,000. NOTE: I'm being super generous here, since many buyers have bought a home before, or have a generous friend or family member who has and will help you navigate the process, or failing that the seller's agent can do most of the same stuff with no real penalty to you (for showing they're going to be more knowledgeable anyways, and they'll certainly keep you in the loop re: timing and required next steps).

Realtor total value-add above: $1,555. Realtor commission on $200k home: $6,000. Commission on $500k home: $15,000.

With my numbers, and again at times I think I'm actually being pretty generous, realtor pricing is something like 300% to 1,000% inflated over a fair market hourly wage for services provided. Put another way, the realtor is asking for more than the banker (directly), appraiser, inspector, title insurer, or closer, combined. And yet of all those entities the realtor has the lowest fixed costs, requires the least training, and has the lowest legal exposure.

Anyways I'm engaging with this discussion because I do value hearing other perspectives. Can anyone make the case to me, on an hourly wage basis, how the realtor is providing service to a buyer commiserate with what they charge?

Many people make this same mistake and try to "price out" everything they see a realtor do. And even if you take into account the things you didn't mention (and btw, yes there's contract work that is done, yes there are market analyses that are done, yes they are directly involved in the "nuts and bolts" of a closing), you are completely invalidating their role as a negotiator, communicator, and project manager. That's essentially what they are, project managers, and they are trained and certified in a specific skillset. Some are better, some are worse, but the skilled realtors make a world of difference. I won't argue that on some sales their commission is crazy high, but that's a different conversation. They still provide a valuable service, and this is what we're discussing here.

What you've just done above is like telling a mechanic you don't agree with this hourly rate because it ended up being a $30 part and a 1hr install, so why should it cost over $100? Well, you're paying beyond the quantifiable. Their experience and knowledge to know that's the issue, diagnose and identify it as such, and know how to repair it properly. If you don't agree, you can go fix your car yourself, but it'll take much longer and there's more of a risk that something might go wrong. Just like with a realtor, if you don't agree with these things that are beyond the quantifiable, you can absolutely go through the process yourself. But I guarantee they're way better at it than you will be. And they are much less likely to forget something (and if they do, you as a buyer do have protection). Part of what you're buying is the ability to not have to do this work yourself and the safety net that comes with contracting someone like a realtor to handle it for you. Another part you're paying for is their experience and familiarity with the process, rules and regulations.

While I'm always happy to have a discussion, I'm not going to comment on this further here because this thread is not about realtors and it detracts from the actual post OP made.

 

[flsupraguy]

Many people make this same mistake and try to "price out" everything they see a realtor do. And even if you take into account the things you didn't mention (and btw, yes there's contract work that is done, yes there are market analyses that are done, yes they are directly involved in the "nuts and bolts" of a closing), you are completely invalidating their role as a negotiator, communicator, and project manager. That's essentially what they are, project managers, and they are trained and certified in a specific skillset. Some are better, some are worse, but the skilled realtors make a world of difference. I won't argue that on some sales their commission is crazy high, but that's a different conversation. They still provide a valuable service, and this is what we're discussing here.

What you've just done above is like telling a mechanic you don't agree with this hourly rate because it ended up being a $30 part and a 1hr install, so why should it cost over $100? Well, you're paying beyond the quantifiable. Their experience and knowledge to know that's the issue, diagnose and identify it as such, and know how to repair it properly. If you don't agree, you can go fix your car yourself, but it'll take much longer and there's more of a risk that something might go wrong. Just like with a realtor, if you don't agree with these things that are beyond the quantifiable, you can absolutely go through the process yourself. But I guarantee they're way better at it than you will be. And they are much less likely to forget something (and if they do, you as a buyer do have protection). Part of what you're buying is the ability to not have to do this work yourself and the safety net that comes with contracting someone like a realtor to handle it for you. Another part you're paying for is their experience and familiarity with the process, rules and regulations.

While I'm always happy to have a discussion, I'm not going to comment on this further here because this thread is not about realtors and it detracts from the actual post OP made.

So make your point (again) but hide behind "im not going to post another off topic post again" lol. A realtor is great on the residential side for the uneducated/uniformed buyer. Furthermore, 90% plus of realtors on the residential side motto is to list your home for as low as possible just so they can earn a commission. Most do not have the full understanding they need and it is usually better to rely on the title company or attorney for the fine print that matters....

 

[sharpsicle]

So make your point (again) but hide behind "im not going to post another off topic post again" lol. A realtor is great on the residential side for the uneducated/uniformed buyer. Furthermore, 90% plus of realtors on the residential side motto is to list your home for as low as possible just so they can earn a commission. Most do not have the full understanding they need and it is usually better to rely on the title company or attorney for the fine print that matters....

I was responding to @sunrise089, not you. I don't know why you assumed that was a response for you. You are free to tag me in an off-topic thread on the subject if you want to talk further. But please, stop assuming things.

 

[NateKY]

All I want to know is if the OP got his deposit back yet??

 

[flsupraguy]

I was responding to @sunrise089, not you. I don't know why you assumed that was a response for you. You are free to tag me in an off-topic thread on the subject if you want to talk further. But please, stop assuming things.

LOL

 

[maligator]

I posted before about how my order sheet didn't match my build sheet or window sticker. Optioned on the Rubicon I ordered were Katzkin leather seats, M/T tires, steel front Bumper, interior assist handles, and sill guards. None of those made it to the build sheet or the window sticker. I talked to Jeep customer service which told me if it isn't on the build sheet or window sticker it isn't there.

I offered to still buy the truck, but at a reduced price because it was ordered wrong. I showed them Gupton's pricing on the same truck I ordered. They refused to deal. I asked for my $500 deposit back and the salesman told me to come in and get it because refunds can't be done over the phone. I re-ordered from Gupton.

A few days later I headed over to Bertera Jeep after work to get my deposit back. I talked to the first guy behind the counter(Vice General sales Manger?) I said I was there to get my deposit back. He gets some info from me and starts looking me up. Then the second guy behind the counter(General Service Manager?) butts in and says, really snarkily, "Deposits are non-refundable!" I said, "nono, I talked to my salesman who said I could come get my deposit back because my order got messed up".

Snarky jerk behind the counter, "Your order didn't get messed up. Deposits are non-refundable. Did you order your Gladiator in Tennessee?" I said, "Yes I did." He responded snarkily once more, "I hope your happy with it. Deposits are non-refundable". I got loud and told him this is a scummy way of doing business, had a few more words, and left.

Got home, called Jeep customer service. They told me I needed to work it out with the dealership. I told them that wasn't going to happen. They said I could file a dealer complaint, so I did. Called my credit card company and reported the fraudulent transaction. Reported to the BBB. My credit card said I likely won't be responsible for the deposit and that they were taking action. I haven't heard back from BBB or Jeep yet.

When I asked my salesperson if the deposit was refundable, I made sure to do it in a text message and forced him to reply to me via text

 

[TwelveGaugeSage]

All I want to know is if the OP got his deposit back yet??

But I need the answer to the burning question of whether or not a realtor is worth retaining or not!

BBB is awaiting response from dealer. Jeep doesn't seem to have done diddly with my dealer complaint yet. When my wife wakes up I will ask her if she received a credit on her credit card yet since we used one that she is the main on and she is a day sleeper(RN).

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