Winch Ropes

[mellendic]

I was looking at my Warn Xenon 10s and the thimble was way too thick and I had to hammer it into place to fit my factor55 flatlink. That pissed me off. I then began to look at the rope and the standard is a 30 inch bury of the rope, the factory rope was buried 18 inches. That seems way to shallow. I am going to replace the factory thimble with the factor 55 Synthetic Rope Spools - Standard Rope Spool, to get rid of that rusting thimble. has anyone else encountered this? I am a bit cautious with my recovery gear, but I can't be the only one to notice this.

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[ACAD_Cowboy]

On the bury, the amount of bury is all rope dependent as well as eye dependent.

With 3/8 rope on a typical eye it would be about 4-7" of bury where as a locked brummel would have something like 3". I'll have to pull out the samson bible a bit later and see, they give it all as rope diameter versus fid length.

Essentially though, too much bury can weaken the eye pull out strength by not allowing a very abrupt pinch of the feathered tuck but too little down't provide enough engagement surface to hold very well at peak.

As for cheap hardware, even the mighty Warn is guilty of seeking cost savings on items that are likely to be swapped out, destroyed or damaged. Savings there means more to spend on the winch itself. Knowing how to work the rope yourself makes it the thimble somewhat redundant anyway right? Need less line for more pull at closer distance? Pull the eye out and move it where you need it to resplice, right?

 

[mellendic]

On the bury, the amount of bury is all rope dependent as well as eye dependent.

With 3/8 rope on a typical eye it would be about 4-7" of bury where as a locked brummel would have something like 3". I'll have to pull out the samson bible a bit later and see, they give it all as rope diameter versus fid length.

Essentially though, too much bury can weaken the eye pull out strength by not allowing a very abrupt pinch of the feathered tuck but too little down't provide enough engagement surface to hold very well at peak.

As for cheap hardware, even the mighty Warn is guilty of seeking cost savings on items that are likely to be swapped out, destroyed or damaged. Savings there means more to spend on the winch itself. Knowing how to work the rope yourself makes it the thimble somewhat redundant anyway right? Need less line for more pull at closer distance? Pull the eye out and move it where you need it to resplice, right?

yeah that is pretty much what i thought as well. I am going to lengthen the bury and change out the thimble with the factor 55 aluminum one, it is much more versatile. I am also trying to get as much metal out of the pull as possible. I have some 35000 break strength soft shackles that I want to start using instead of the heavy hook that is currently in place.

 

[LostWoods]

If you're replacing and want to do it right, TRE did the thimble design first and you just splice it right onto the rope. Highly recommend because it takes a lot of failure points out and it's easier to work with than F55's version.

 

[mellendic]

If you're replacing and want to do it right, TRE did the thimble design first and you just splice it right onto the rope. Highly recommend because it takes a lot of failure points out and it's easier to work with than F55's version.

Cool I will take a look

 

[ACAD_Cowboy]

So after a longish weekend I decided to go digging.

https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/def...trand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

This is for a 12 strand class II eye splice. An important piece here is standard fid length is 21 x rope diameter. So in our case they are calling for 4 fids of bury on the tail. (4 x (21 X 3/8")) is 31.5" which tracks closely with your listed 30" standard bury.

My numbers above are basically minimum numbers for functional splices that are not class 1 or class 2 load bearing working splices.

 

[mellendic]

So after a longish weekend I decided to go digging.

https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/def...trand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

This is for a 12 strand class II eye splice. An important piece here is standard fid length is 21 x rope diameter. So in our case they are calling for 4 fids of bury on the tail. (4 x (21 X 3/8")) is 31.5" which tracks closely with your listed 30" standard bury.

My numbers above are basically minimum numbers for functional splices that are not class 1 or class 2 load bearing working splices.

I thought your numbers were slightly low... good link, I am burying it soon, just need the time, it is a good exercise in trail maintenance as well.

 

[ACAD_Cowboy]

The short tucks are typical of arborists and casual climbers, the loads are frighteningly below WLL on the ropes themselves. Samson feels you will be working the rope at WLL forever and their data reflects it.

Either way, I would never tuck 3 inches on a winch line but ~15 sounds too short for comfort.

 

[Higher_Ground]

The short tucks are typical of arborists and casual climbers, the loads are frighteningly below WLL on the ropes themselves. Samson feels you will be working the rope at WLL forever and their data reflects it.

Either way, I would never tuck 3 inches on a winch line but ~15 sounds too short for comfort.

I was looking for some advice on soft shackles and I see you seem to know your way around synthetic ropes. What size amsteel would you recommend? I guess it's all subjective to a degree.

 

[mellendic]

I was looking for some advice on soft shackles and I see you seem to know your way around synthetic ropes. What size amsteel would you recommend? I guess it's all subjective to a degree.

7/16 for moderate duty (WLL 7500-8000) 5/8 for a heavier load (WLL 10000-12000) these are just esitimates and I typically get them from known manufacturers, with load testing and break strength testing. I use Factor55 stuff for all of my recovery gear.

 

[Higher_Ground]

Thanks, I'm thinking 7/16th will do but wanted to check before pulling the trigger.

The site I always used for splicing instructions rated the soft shackles at 170% of single line strength (and tested several sizes to come up with that figure). The samson website quotes 7/16ths as having 21.5k min breaking strength, so I figure estimate about 36.5k for a shackle if that's accurate.

What I don't have a good way to estimate is how much actual jerking force it'll take as opposed to a steady load. I want to pair this with a kinetic strap rated for 30kips and figure that should be "good enough" if I use all the elasticity in it.

That being said, the other feedback I got was "why not go bigger" and I can see the benefit in doing that... just not the stopping point. A 2.5" line with a million lbs of breaking strength would be cool.... but not very practical.

 

[mellendic]

Thanks, I'm thinking 7/16th will do but wanted to check before pulling the trigger.

The site I always used for splicing instructions rated the soft shackles at 170% of single line strength (and tested several sizes to come up with that figure). The samson website quotes 7/16ths as having 21.5k min breaking strength, so I figure estimate about 36.5k for a shackle if that's accurate.

What I don't have a good way to estimate is how much actual jerking force it'll take as opposed to a steady load. I want to pair this with a kinetic strap rated for 30kips and figure that should be "good enough" if I use all the elasticity in it.

That being said, the other feedback I got was "why not go bigger" and I can see the benefit in doing that... just not the stopping point. A 2.5" line with a million lbs of breaking strength would be cool.... but not very practical.

in a non static (dynamic) pull there are stronger forces at work, I would say go bigger. I have some heavy duty 10 inch soft shackles from Factor55 that I use for that, I truly hate metal in my recovery.

 

[mellendic]

in a non static (dynamic) pull there are stronger forces at work, I would say go bigger. I have some heavy duty 10 inch soft shackles from Factor55 that I use for that, I truly hate metal in my recovery.

also if building yourself, they Break strength is harder to test without a proper facility because the knots and the bury need to be correct, not just the size.

 

[Higher_Ground]

Whelp, bigger may break the value of building these myself. I was looking at about 7' of line per shackle.

I can get 7/16ths for $2.25/ft from the hammock vendor I use.

If I go bigger I have to find another place to buy. Cheapest I've seen 1/2" is $4.29/ft ...

So price went from ~$16 to $30 each with one step up. Going to see if I can find a better vendor though.

 

[mellendic]

Whelp, bigger may break the value of building these myself. I was looking at about 7' of line per shackle.

I can get 7/16ths for $2.25/ft from the hammock vendor I use.

If I go bigger I have to find another place to buy. Cheapest I've seen 1/2" is $4.29/ft ...

So price went from ~$16 to $30 each with one step up. Going to see if I can find a better vendor though.

yeah and no testing... so YOLO... good luck!

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