Wandering Wheel on a Stock 2023 JT Rubicon?

[Wheelin98TJ]

Take it up with SteerSmarts and several others who do this for a living. I didn't just make it up. More info in the links.

Others that do it for a living tell you to try toe out as a diagnostic exercise, but not to leave it toed out.

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[Zachanadandy]

The top hole in the Rancho brackets are going to give you pretty close to the exact same movement as the Mopar arms, but the added benefit of the brackets is that if you do decide to install a lift of some kid later on, you can drop to the middle hole or the lower one, depending on the needs.

The rear brackets from Teraflex can be installed on anything from stock to 3.5 lift and more. They were like I had tossed 200 pounds of weight on the tailgate.
https://teraflex.com/jt-extended-travel-axle-bracket-kit-rear-upper-control-arms-1-rear-lift.html

The lcas would literally be angled up toward the axle and so would the uppers even in the stock hole in my opinion. Even rancho suggests minimum 2" lift.
COMPATIBILITY -- Fits 2-door, 4-door Jeep Wrangler JL, non-Rubicon and Rubicon models with 2-in. to 4.5-in. lift kits that utilize the factory upper and lower control arms

 

[Lunentucker]

21 Mojave / 2 inch AVE Lift / Rancho Brackets (middle hole) BFG K02 35-12.5-R17/ Teraflex Nexus 2.2 Stabilizer / Toed out about 0.5 degrees

I believe I added the Metalcloak sector shaft brace and the Teraflex rear brackets after this video was made.

It's a Jeep thing

 

[RubyLu]

Friends, thank you all very much for your thoughtful replies. If I may clarify, I do understand that the Rubicon has a more robust stance by virtue of springs that are more stout, as opposed to a lift kit. Also, according to the diagram that Lunentucker was kind enough to provide, I stand corrected by stating I have 3 to 4 degrees of positive caster as measured with a cheap Klein electronic angle gauge. I recall seeing a Jeep spec that the Mojave has more positive caster than that, and the Sport has closer to 5 to 6 degrees of positive caster. So, I'm left wondering if the reduced positive caster is contributing to my wondering and lack of wheel wanting to return to center.

Also, if I may add, I do not expect this Jeep to dive like my Dodge Durango, which has an excellent steering and ride quality. But neither do I feel that we should have to put in so much driving correction into a new $60K Gladiator Rubicon simply to keep it in its lane. When we were considering buying this Jeep we test drove three other Gladiators and they all seemed to wander. We just didn't realize how this wandering would so negatively impact our driving experience on the highway, in rough or windy conditions, and on longer trips.

Since many others have commented that good Gladiator steering is possible, even with aftermarket lifts and suspension, I am having trouble subscribing to the concept of this simply being a "Jeep Thing." My experience is that the "Jeep Thing" may actually refer to how poorly the dealerships are willing to work to solve problems like this. I read a general consensus that my next step should be to have the entire front end and alignment checked by an expert, and I'll appreciate the opportunity to report back here with our findings. Thank you all very much.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

your Tubicon like all JLs and JTs has a solid front axle. It will never be as stable on highway as a vehicle with independent front suspension. It’s a trade off to improve off road capability.

On the highway, one should never notice the difference if all else is right.
Mine is stable on the highway, even at speeds over 90 mph.
On a decent highway, there's nothing making any difference - it's only when you hit rough patches, uneven road, rough spots, where it matters as the steering linkage can't follow steering knuckle movements like IFS. The flex points of IFS steering linkage keeps things lined up as the wheels move up and down with the control arms. The control arms of IFS pivot in roughly the same plane and same places as the steering linkage.
That can't happen with IFS.
But on a decent highway, you should not feel a difference IF the thing is aligned properly and geometry is correct.
The WJ was a solid axle Jeep and yet it handled, road, drove just like many cars with recirculating ball steering gear.

Others that do it for a living tell you to try toe out as a diagnostic exercise, but not to leave it toed out.

True unless someone has tossed on tire and wheel changes that impart large enough changes to scrub radius.

If the scrub radius is negative the wheel tends to toe-in.
That's where the centerline of the tire and the line through the ball joints, the KPI, intersect above the pavement surface.
Rear wheel drive vehicles aren't sent out with negative scrub radius so they tend to toe out.
Taller tires and certain wheel changes will move things toward less positive, or toward more negative scrub radius. So if you go far enough with changes, it may actually want to toe in.

If the scrub radius is positive the wheel tends to toe-out.
That's factory. The intersection of the tire centerline and the KPI is below the surface of the pavement. That's how they come normally. Taller tires reduce that. Tall enough and you go to 0 or negative, and there it will tend to toe in as you drive.

If the scrub radius is zero the wheel is in straight position.
It will be sort of wandery and may even wobble.


Note some key takeaways from above - you want the steering linkage "pre-loaded", tension on it, you don't want 0 scrub radius -
Most vehicles will not be designed with zero scrub radius, but changes in tire height and wheel offset can unintentionally create a zero scrub radius. When scrub radius is zero, tension on the steering system is reduced and vehicle handling will tend to be unstable. Zero scrub radius also causes the tires to scrub in the opposite direction of rotation during turns (tire squirm). This has a negative effect on handling in turns and affects overall tire wear.

This paragraph below is from a book that says what I'm saying in other terms (I added the underlines). Sorry, folks, you may have done this to yourselves............

Very large tires on stock wheels may produce negative scrub radius. This can cause vehicle wandering and a lack of steering input on a RWD vehicle. It may be possible to offset changes to scrub radius caused by wheel and tire changes by adjusting the toe setting. But this will be a compromise at best.

I know a lot of folks won't believe just me saying it - so look it up yourself. This dates back to my college and front end alignment days.

I do plan on adding the MOPAR lift kit LCAs to my wife's JLU Rubicon. It just seems like it's got a bit less caster than it should have. It's a cheap thing to do.

I'll also refer back to the story of my wife insisting I get us back home before the big derecho hit us - and how I was doing stupid things on the interstate while she was telling me to go around that guy, get through there, faster, gotta beat this thing - and how I was doing easily 85 with crazy winds whipping at us, road signs being bent like #9 wire, etc. and yet that truck was stable as can be, never once felt loose, no play, it handled fine.
Sorry, it's not normal if it wanders or is loose, it's not a "solid axle thing" - not on a decent highway, and they can and should handle just fine.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I stand corrected by stating I have 3 to 4 degrees of positive caster as measured with a cheap Klein electronic angle gauge.

Definitely LOW. Even factory spec is greater than that.

We've driven my Gladiators (I'm on my 2nd one) through several states, pretty much non-stop driving at my wife's insistence, and they just don't have a problem unless it's really windy (stay out of Kansas LOL)
Been from Central Iowa to Sarasota, FL and back twice in Jeeps, been to Colorado springs and back, and neither of us tire of driving our Jeeps on those trips. One time we drove from about 6 am until a bit after midnight, took a couple hours naps at a rest area, and continued on our way.
These just should not be problematic.

 

[Lunentucker]

Scrub Radius was the last thing I had to get my head around, and only after the Cat in the Hat went on and on about it forEVER ?, but it IS just as important as caster, toe, camber, and everything else that goes into a good-driving and handling solid axle vehicle. There are some awesome looking Jeeps out there, with giant tires, lifts, and excessive poke, and too many aftermarket wheel and tire consumers put looks ahead of function, and they drive like a wrestling match.

SCRUB RADIUS - What it is and How the Dynatrac PRO 1550 Knuckle Helps Improve Steering on the XD60 - YouTube

 

[BearFootSam]

A SFA vehicle will react more to single side impacts (think pothole) and have a distinctly different steering feel. I think that the sluggish (by comparison) steering adds a vagueness that gets mistaken for wander. If I rotate the wheel a few degrees it takes longer to respond than a compact FWD econobox. If I turn the wheel a few degrees left then a few degrees right in quick succession, the appearance may be that there is 'play' but I contend that this is more a function of the steering inputs changing faster than the vehicle is responding. So it may feel that there is a dead spot, when this isn't actually the case.

For the record, my 22 JTR steers great for a SFA. On a rough road I actually prefer the feel in conjunction with the body on frame feel. There is a greater isolation from the roadbed which translates to a less jarring ride.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Scrub Radius was the last thing I had to get my head around, and only after the Cat in the Hat went on and on about it forEVER ?, but it IS just as important as caster, toe, camber, and everything else that goes into a good-driving and handling solid axle vehicle. There are some awesome looking Jeeps out there, with giant tires, lifts, and excessive poke, and too many aftermarket wheel and tire consumers put looks ahead of function, and they drive like a wrestling match.

SCRUB RADIUS - What it is and How the Dynatrac PRO 1550 Knuckle Helps Improve Steering on the XD60 - YouTube

If I get stupid, win a lottery and get caught up on shop stuff I may have to take my JT on another cross-country journey............

 

[tysongladiator]

You changed parts. Ok. Have you even thought about checking parts first?

1. Balljoints?
2. Did you have someone get in and turn the steering wheel back and forth to make sure there is no movement in either of the track bar bolts?
3. Did you check the pitman arm nut to ensure that it is torqued to 184 ft/lbs?
4. Maybe the four steering box bolts that are torqued to 99 ft/lbs?
5. Or make sure there are no other damaged or imporperly torqued steering/suspension components?
6. Tires?

I did a video on my YT channel about my jeep swaying. It was the pitman arm nut. It was finger tight. Torqued it to 184 ft/lbs and it was good to go. I did another video where where my steering box bolts were not properly torqued. A couple were around 80, one was around 50, and I think one was down in the 30s. Different vehicle suspensions (even different JTs) react different to specific tires. When I had my Ram, I had Nittos and I couldn't control it. Switched to K03s and complete opposite.

Take a look at those before replacing more parts.

 

[Badunit]

Mopar long control arms helped mine feel a lot more stable. You might want to start with this. I felt it was way too twitchy with the stock control arms. It is only $100 or so for the arms and easy to install if you have some wrenching experience and a good impact wrench. Without an impact wrench it may be difficult to get everything torqued down, especially if you are working on the ground (and it will take a pretty hefty torque wrench).

Mine still feels like it wanders a little or maybe it is just "vague". Nothing too unusual for a solid front axle and recirculating ball steering. I have no idea what toe was set to from the factory. Early on I tried toeing it in an additional 0.10 degrees (calculated as 1/3 turn = 0.10 degrees). I can't say for sure if that helped or not but I started seeing some light tire wear indicative of toe in so I recently tried going the other way, 0.10 degrees less toe from factory. I'm not jumping to a verdict just yet, any change this small is subtle and I also want to see what my tires do. One day I should get around to seeing what the toe is actually set to, or maybe I'll experiment by feel some more first.

I am curious what a different (more damped) steering stabilizer would do for steering feel and how it reacts on bumps and unevenness. I also wonder if it would make it more stable on windy days. It takes some concentration on windy days and I don't know if that is because of steering geometry, side profile of the vehicle, or if it jerks the wheel slightly (which is where the stabilizer might help).

I like wrenching and experimenting but I do feel that Jeep should have adjusted/tuned it right to start with vs me trying to figure it out. I had to go through the same thing with my Ram 2500 when it was new.

 

[Lunentucker]

If I get stupid, win a lottery and get caught up on shop stuff I may have to take my JT on another cross-country journey............

I have driven by that museum 400 times, and have yet to visit.
About an hour from the house.

 

[Tommyd]

Take it up with SteerSmarts and several others who do this for a living. I didn't just make it up. More info in the links.

I got that info from the owner of dynatrac axles. It’s on wayalifes YouTube channel. He explains how to set up a front end on one.

 

[Jimko71]

Drop about $90 on the LCAs from the Mopar lift kit and enjoy the improvement.
I found out about them in the JL Forum as a type of "fix" to the wander for the wife's 2020 JLU. Made a massive improvement, then when Jeep finally did the TSB to replace the aluminum gear box, that combined with the Mopar LCAs made for hell of a nice ride.
I ended up putting a set on my 80AE JT and that drove better than any Jeep I've ever driven. Better believe I'm putting a set in the Mojave JT I just purchased.

Does your wife's JLU have any type of lift? I though adding the Mopar LCA on a non lifted JT/JL will put too much caster on it? I bought them for my JT and was told by people on this forum not to install them if I never lift the front end.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Does your wife's JLU have any type of lift? I though adding the Mopar LCA on a non lifted JT/JL will put too much caster on it? I bought them for my JT and was told by people on this forum not to install them if I never lift the front end.

It won't add so much as to be bad. Had them on my 20 and now on my 22 and definitely not too much.

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