Black Debris in Oil Filter/Analysis Report

[Maximus Gladius]

21 JTR, gas, auto, 107k kms (total), second engine (approx 75k kms)
Quick history: at about 32k I got my factory engine replaced on an insurance claim. Tech mistakenly added 6L (holds 5) to an already over filled crank case and 12L of oil was drained out on the first 1567kms oil change and I’ve done early oil changes ever since for 75k kms.

When my oil life gauge reaches 50%, I change oil/filter and sample goes to the lab for analysis. Reason being is I believe running 12L of oil for 1567 kms to BC and back over several mountain passes has put undue stress on the main bearings and such so I must keep my eye on how the wear metals are doing, I can’t help myself. (Iron has always read high (approx 50ppm every 3000-5000 kms)

No glycol in my engine oil, but there is in my oil catch can. ??this is still a mystery??

For the first several (6 or so) oil changes, I ran Quaker State full synthetic and for the first 6 oil changes I kept the oil filters and hung them up on my garage wall for reference and discussion. Some glitter is barley noticeable but normal to me. Filters are quite clean in appearance.

For the next several oil changes, I switched to Mobil 1. I only inspected each filter after they had time to drain out. They all looked great, no alarms, I did not keep these. Iron is still reading high (to me).

After several oil changes, I switched to Pennzoil Ultra Premium to see if maybe their additive package would help bring down the IRON count to more reasonable levels like (20’s ppm) not in the 50+ ppm.

Sometime earlier this year I had briefly heard a bottom end knocking and then that was it. So I figured if something was going to blow, oil won’t save it now so I just kept using the Pennzoil to current. Analysis shows excellent wear numbers except for IRON. I did have a misfire @60k kms (P0305) which ended up being a bad #5 plug, I changed them all and PCV. No misfires, engine very smooth and quiet…except now, the bottom end knocking is at every cold start up, RPM’s start high and as they come down and normalize, the knocking takes place, then goes quiet till next morning at cold start up and ground zero with stethoscope places it at a main bearing, mid to front of engine along the second oil pan (the one you can’t see).

So,…my oil life guage reached 50% and I changed the oil and grabbed the last dried/drained out filter up on the shelf and opened it up! SHOCKED to see all this “black” in the pleats so I took it to the lab to tell me what it is. The “black” is carbon, WHAT? HOW and WHERE did it come from?? Oil and gas are hydrocarbons, long chain. Lab tech said there is no way to know which carbon it is.

There is an answer however and clues are given above. The lab gathered up all my many analysis reports and discovered where the high carbon came from. This is another reason I do oil analysis reports. No guessing here. But I welcome your thoughts, if you were to open up your oil filter and see all this black, what would you do?

Here’s some tech data:
-PCV is brand new.
-plugs have 15k kms
-oil changed every 3-5k kms
-Blowby with engine running and filler cap off, paper held over fill hole has slight pulsing.
-no upper engine ticking
-regular gas used
-the odd time I will throw in some sea foam in the gas.
-air filter is maintained, K$N. (I know what over oiling and under oiling looks like) analysis does not indicate abnormal dirt getting in.
-lab rinsed part of filter, dried out residue and analyzed debris.
“black” residue is actually “brown” when dried.

Good luck. You’ll be very surprised to know what it is.

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[KevinC]

An O-Ring from a previous oil filter got sucked into the crankcase? Just a wild guess.

Curious why you prefer K&N air filter after all the stories? Does not the factory air filter perform to standard?

 

[Firebird]

What did it end up being? I'm not skilled at reading the reports.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

An O-Ring from a previous oil filter got sucked into the crankcase? Just a wild guess.

Curious why you prefer K&N air filter after all the stories? Does not the factory air filter perform to standard?

I question that as well. The factory filter is superior. That's all I'll use in a vehicle I actually care about. You don't need "more air" unless that thing is a modified engine.

Any real "carbon" in the oil has to come from rings being bypassed, or the oil being baked somehow. It cokes up. The crankcase is basically a sealed container - only air can get in via the venting system (which includes the fresh air intake from the air filter tube, and the PCV valve itself). The only ways in otherwise are past the rings.
I have seen engines that run cold, don't get warmed up often enough, short drives and so on, with oil caked up in the tops of the heads, pieces break off and end up in the crankcase.

No glycol in my engine oil, but there is in my oil catch can. ??this is still a mystery??

possibly from the lines/hoses?

Have you sent dual samples to another lab?

 

[Maximus Gladius]

An O-Ring from a previous oil filter got sucked into the crankcase? Just a wild guess.

Curious why you prefer K&N air filter after all the stories? Does not the factory air filter perform to standard?

Good guess but no. About K&N, I’ve religiously used them since my first vehicle when I turned 16 and I learned how to oil them properly. Yes, they can be over oiled and can make a mess of MAF sensors etc and I’ve heard the stories but I’m not one of those stories.
If I was oiling wrong or the filter is just crap as I’ve read the opinions from the most seasoned ones on here, I’d say my oil analysis reports indicate the filter is breathing properly and blocking out all the dust and bugs just fine.
I’ve seen the analysis reports of those on here and the “excellent” ones who’s silicon levels are low or they indicate the filter is doing its job, I have the same numbers and at times have been slightly better.
I like mine and is working great for me.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I question that as well. The factory filter is superior. That's all I'll use in a vehicle I actually care about. You don't need "more air" unless that thing is a modified engine.

Any real "carbon" in the oil has to come from rings being bypassed, or the oil being baked somehow. It cokes up. The crankcase is basically a sealed container - only air can get in via the venting system (which includes the fresh air intake from the air filter tube, and the PCV valve itself). The only ways in otherwise are past the rings.
I have seen engines that run cold, don't get warmed up often enough, short drives and so on, with oil caked up in the tops of the heads, pieces break off and end up in the crankcase.



possibly from the lines/hoses?

Have you sent dual samples to another lab?

Last question first, when I saw the glycol in the first report (of two), and all the reports on my engine don’t have it, I assumed it was from the rubber or manufacturing of the hose. I bought it new so there was no “other” uses on it. I took the hose off and sprayed brake cleaner through it, dried it out and put it back to work. The second report showed WAY LESS silicon and crap but the glycol still reads. ?? I don’t know.

The “black” carbon in the filter was assumed that this substance is burned in the cylinders and mad its way into the crankcase and trapped by the filter. That was my guess and a couple other guesses by very intelligent mechanics I’ve come to respect and have a long history with. So, I then paid a visit to the lab tech who’s been there over 30 years and we started digging. The tech then went over to the computer and pulled up my analysis history of this engine and we looked at the 3 different oils I’ve used in the 75k kms.

He looked at the detergents in all 3 and said out of the 3 oils, Quaker State has the lowest detergents, followed by Mobil 1 that is slightly better, followed by Pennzoil that has the highest amount. His opinion is that because the carbon is actually brown and not burnt black like we’d see in the cylinders, the detergents of the Pennzoil is cleaning better than what Quaker State and Mobil 1 ever did.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Have you sent dual samples to another lab?

No I haven’t. I should.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

We should also see a decrease in this carbon as I do my oil changes.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Last question first, when I saw the glycol in the first report (of two), and all the reports on my engine don’t have it, I assumed it was from the rubber or manufacturing of the hose. I bought it new so there was no “other” uses on it. I took the hose off and sprayed brake cleaner through it, dried it out and put it back to work. The second report showed WAY LESS silicon and crap but the glycol still reads. ?? I don’t know.

I'd forgotten about that bit - you did mention that before but I forgot you had cleaned it all out. So I guess we both scratch heads at this point? LOL

The “black” carbon in the filter was assumed that this substance is burned in the cylinders and mad its way into the crankcase and trapped by the filter. That was my guess and a couple other guesses by very intelligent mechanics I’ve come to respect and have a long history with.

I tried and tried and tried to figure a way that carbon could ever possibly make its way from chamber to crankcase - there's no path. The only way is if you had a busted ring or rings or busted piston. THAT I have seen - I can't help but think you'd notice that big time in the lab results!!! You'd be showing fuel contamination as well as other alarming things. (not to mention I bet you'd feel it - I did when I blew #5 in my 70's 390. Most didn't, most thought no, the engine is fine, but it just didn't feel right. Pulling off the oil fill cap proved I was right, pulling the heads exposed an unpretty sight.

So, I then paid a visit to the lab tech who’s been there over 30 years and we started digging. The tech then went over to the computer and pulled up my analysis history of this engine and we looked at the 3 different oils I’ve used in the 75k kms.

He looked at the detergents in all 3 and said out of the 3 oils, Quaker State has the lowest detergents, followed by Mobil 1 that is slightly better, followed by Pennzoil that has the highest amount. His opinion is that because the carbon is actually brown and not burnt black like we’d see in the cylinders, the detergents of the Pennzoil is cleaning better than what Quaker State and Mobil 1 ever did.

I don't know if you've seen the last lab results from my 2022 JT - taken at about 7200 miles (sorry, didn't take time to convert to km)
The said that the oil still had life left, still detergents and other agents and could go a bit longer, but it was a good test.
The oil? The stock stuff Jeep calls for, which is Pennzoil. I have found no reason to change with the test results I've been getting and lack of any engine issues so far (quick, where's something wood to knock on!) I've found it to be pretty highly rated wear-wise, so I'm sticking with it.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I'd forgotten about that bit - you did mention that before but I forgot you had cleaned it all out. So I guess we both scratch heads at this point? LOL


I tried and tried and tried to figure a way that carbon could ever possibly make its way from chamber to crankcase - there's no path. The only way is if you had a busted ring or rings or busted piston. THAT I have seen - I can't help but think you'd notice that big time in the lab results!!! You'd be showing fuel contamination as well as other alarming things. (not to mention I bet you'd feel it - I did when I blew #5 in my 70's 390. Most didn't, most thought no, the engine is fine, but it just didn't feel right. Pulling off the oil fill cap proved I was right, pulling the heads exposed an unpretty sight.



I don't know if you've seen the last lab results from my 2022 JT - taken at about 7200 miles (sorry, didn't take time to convert to km)
The said that the oil still had life left, still detergents and other agents and could go a bit longer, but it was a good test.
The oil? The stock stuff Jeep calls for, which is Pennzoil. I have found no reason to change with the test results I've been getting and lack of any engine issues so far (quick, where's something wood to knock on!) I've found it to be pretty highly rated wear-wise, so I'm sticking with it.

I know my dealership uses the Pennzoil as well but it’s not the Ultra Premium.

I’d have to go back to the lab and ask what the detergent levels are with the different Pennzoil brands. Perhaps the Ultra Premium has higher detergents. I’m curious.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

You'd be showing fuel contamination as well as other alarming things

I thought I was going to see fuel and water in the catch can analysis, nope.

 

[RHINO79]

Never trust anyone else to change your oil.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Never trust anyone else to change your oil.

Correct. I’ve done all of them my self.

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