Test with simulated tongue weight - yikes! No wonder the RAKE

[ShadowsPapa]

Check with Motor Inn - I know buyers were having lifts installed at the dealer but don’t know if they were taking the take-offs with them or leaving them at the dealer. Either way - you can leave your contact info in case something comes up.

Will do.
My wife suggested I take a car out of storage, take the trailer out of storage, load the car up, hook up and see if this can even pull it after seeing how badly the thing sags in back. It's awfully darned cold to be messing with that but waiting until spring to find out isn't good either.
The problem is that people are beefing up the Rubicon and swapping springs and such - no one is swapping out max tow springs and parts. Would Rubicon springs be much better?
Dunno.
It would sit about 3/4 to an inch higher anyway.
I think I'd be better off with max tow springs - they are progressive.
But at least Rubicon springs would be a bit stronger - maybe...

Here's what I have gleaned from the forum -

Base Sport and Overland have the softest coils.
Overland gets 440/441 rear coils even with the towing package.
Max Tow upgrades to 444/445 coils in the rear.
Rubicon gets 450/451 rear coils.
The Max Tow coils are also progressive, so that with higher loads they handle the weight better.

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[RH 67]

I would talk to these people. Tell them what you want and i`m sure they can make them for you. https://eibach.com/us/c-74-products-truck-jeep-performance.html

 

[PyrPatriot]

I do NOT know the weight of these blocks - if anyone here does hardscaping or retaining walls, maybe they can answer the weight question.
I have been looking into reducing the rake of this Overland. I don't mind some and I "get" the why of a pickup with rake - especially if it's truly used as a pickup and/or tows. You don't want your butt dragging like a dog that's just taken a dump and is trying to clean off.

So I thought - I had contacted a shop that has the stuff and even does the leveling and such (they quoted 450 for the parts, labor and alignment to level it) but I thought- I don't KNOW how much rake I want taken out - or if I want it level or just better?
How the heck would I possibly know until next spring when I uncover my cars, get the trailer prepped, load up and strap a car on and hitch up??? That's weeks or months away. i'd like to know NOW what to expect!
Overlands are wimps. That's the summary - and now I'm really worried.

OK, Again, I do not know what these blocks weight.
What I did for my test - I have a platform that goes into a 2" receiver.
I measured the height of the back bumper and the bottom of the square hole in the receiver.
I got 23.5" ground to "step" in the back bumper, 18.5 ground to the bottom of the receiver hole.
I measured the bottom of the running boards to the ground.
Those were 15.25" ground to bottom of front of running board and 17" from ground to bottom of the rear of the running board.
About a 1.75" difference front to rear.
That's the starting points, unloaded, truck empty.
I put the platform in the receiver on the back of the JT
I loaded it up with 8 concrete retaining wall blocks. I don't know if they are 50 or 60 or 70 pounds, have no idea. I have no scale.
I got in the truck and instantly knew I had a problem - I was looking more up, at the hood, and felt like my butt was sagging.
I put the truck back where it was when I first measured things to be sure it was apples to apples.
I measured again -
The bumper was now 19.5" from the ground - a loss of 4" The hitch measurement showed the same drop.
The running board measurement was now 15.75 front and 15.75 rear. The front went up about .5" and the back dropped.

So with a tongue weight of only 400 pounds IF IF IF those blocks are only 50 pounds x 8 means the back of that truck will drop a whopping freakin' inches.
And if my tongue weight is 10% of the total trailer weight of 4600 pounds, that's another 60 pounds back there, dropping it even more.
Now if those blocks are say 60 pounds each times 8, that's 480 pounds and this would be about what my trailer tongue weight would really be but still that's a hell of a drop and it means I can't level the truck even a tiny bit, not at all. I have to leave all of the rake in just to have it sit lower than level in the back once loaded.
I think I am in very big trouble. I knew the payload was slim at a bit over 1,000 pounds and the towing rating was only 6,000 pounds but I never expected the rear to be on the ground when loaded. If I put 1,000 pounds in the back of that truck I'd be hunting raccoons with the headlights.

I have 350lbs in my bed with sand bags and mat. Will add another 100 and take a pic for you in better lighting to see if the Max Tow package lowers as much

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I have 350lbs in my bed with sand bags and mat. Will add another 100 and take a pic for you in better lighting to see if the Max Tow package lowers as much

Thanks - please keep in mind that trailer tongue weight will be about 3" behind the bumper, where the hitch ball will be. That's why I used this platform with the landscape wall blocks to simulate a true trailer tongue on it.
If it sinks that far with the platform with bricks, it will sink that far with a trailer, maybe more, if the trailer tongue weighs more than about 450 pounds. That's what is scary.
I can find Rubicon springs - but no one swaps out max tow springs!.

 

[PyrPatriot]

Thanks - please keep in mind that trailer tongue weight will be about 3" behind the bumper, where the hitch ball will be. That's why I used this platform with the landscape wall blocks to simulate a true trailer tongue on it.
If it sinks that far with the platform with bricks, it will sink that far with a trailer, maybe more, if the trailer tongue weighs more than about 450 pounds. That's what is scary.
I can find Rubicon springs - but no one swaps out max tow springs!.

Noone in your area. I picked up an extra set

 

[Gatorized]

Max tow is strictly a Sport S option. The Rubicon has higher towing standard from what I am seeing in these charts. So Rubicon springs should be what you need. Doesn’t take into consideration other factors in the max tow config. - i.e. wide axle and 4,10 gears. So are the Overland springs different than the max tow or Rubicon springs?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Max tow is strictly a Sport S option. The Rubicon has higher towing standard from what I am seeing in these charts. So Rubicon springs should be what you need. Doesn’t take into consideration other factors in the max tow config. - i.e. wide axle and 4,10 gears. So are the Overland springs different than the max tow or Rubicon springs?

The Overland springs are apparently the most wimpy of 'em all. (aside from Sport without max tow)

Yeah, can't turn it into a max tow vehicle, but need to keep it from sinking so far. Imagine having everything fine for normal driving and then the back drops 4-5" - and your headlights point up.........
Now that's the other thing - the springs for Rubicon - some say that they have swapped them in and the ride was too soft. The vehicle sat up a bit higher, but wasn't a good ride, soft or words to that effect. The max tow springs are progressive - so I'd think they would handle the load better, not sink so far. I drove a JT Sport S with max tow for a test drive and I thought it rode great so I don't care at all if I find max tow springs and it rides different.
But I've searched the forum off and on anyway just to see what's out there or for sale and never see any springs from a max tow for sale - and that makes sense! Rubicon yeah, people want to lift those, put tougher springs under them, Rubicon springs are all over (except Iowa of course!) but I never see max tow stuff for sale.

Look at your charts -they say Overland max tongue weight is 600 pounds? What a joke - 450 and it drops this much. 600 would really drop it down, likely at least another inch, maybe more. The back end would be dragging bad.
The Rubicon tongue weight is not good either.
I would expect when they say max tongue weight that should mean without dropping the rear of the vehicle drastically.

This is all I know about the JT springs but it doesn't really tell the story either- only part numbers, which don't tell rates, etc.

Base Sport and Overland have the softest coils.
Overland gets 440/441 rear coils even with the towing package.
Max Tow upgrades to 444/445 coils in the rear.
Rubicon gets 450/451 rear coils.
The Max Tow coils are also progressive, so that with higher loads they handle the weight better.

 

[PyrPatriot]

Thanks - please keep in mind that trailer tongue weight will be about 3" behind the bumper, where the hitch ball will be. That's why I used this platform with the landscape wall blocks to simulate a true trailer tongue on it.
If it sinks that far with the platform with bricks, it will sink that far with a trailer, maybe more, if the trailer tongue weighs more than about 450 pounds. That's what is scary.
I can find Rubicon springs - but no one swaps out max tow springs!.

You should be able to order some. In theory they are for sale because folks with the Max Tow package will need to replace springs and shocks due to wear and tear (eventually)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

You should be able to order some. In theory they are for sale because folks with the Max Tow package will need to replace springs and shocks due to wear and tear (eventually)

Yeah, pretty sure I can order some but when you see take-offs going for a tenth of list price from the dealership......... I bet they are 100 bucks a pop from a dealer compared to 200-300 for Rubicon springs, shocks, links and more.

 

[AggieJeep]

Thanks - please keep in mind that trailer tongue weight will be about 3" behind the bumper, where the hitch ball will be. That's why I used this platform with the landscape wall blocks to simulate a true trailer tongue on it.
If it sinks that far with the platform with bricks, it will sink that far with a trailer, maybe more, if the trailer tongue weighs more than about 450 pounds. That's what is scary.
I can find Rubicon springs - but no one swaps out max tow springs!.

while I can appreciate the attempt to replicate a tongue weight, I’m not sure the center of gravity of the carrier and blocks is truly accurate. The pics seem to indicate the COG would be further back than where my hitch ball would be. This would give the load more leverage causing more squat. I am just estimating from the pics and the quoted dimensions, but you may not have as much squat with an actual loaded trailer as this simulation seems to indicate.
Save the pic and perhaps get a real comparison when the snow clears

 

[brancky3]

This is interesting to see, but why on earth would you put the blocks on a hitch mounted carrier instead of in the bed?

 

[HTXGladiator]

This is interesting to see, but why on earth would you put the blocks on a hitch mounted carrier instead of in the bed?

he was simulating tongue weight, trying to get an idea of how much squat he would encounter with a loaded trailer.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This is interesting to see, but why on earth would you put the blocks on a hitch mounted carrier instead of in the bed?

EXACTLY as HTXGladiator said -
Center of gravity.
Does your trailer tongue sit in the box? Or about 10" behind the hole for the pin in the receiver?
I wasn't simulating payload - but trailer weight.
If I was simulating payload the best way to haul a load in the box is centered over rear axle and forward, not behind the axle.

The ball will sit behind the receiver so the trailer tongue weight is a few inches behind the receiver - not on the bumper, not on the receiver, but a bit behind because the ball mount sticks back of the receiver and back of the bumper.

I measured and the ball on my mount in the receiver on my truck would sit about 9 to 10 inches back of the round hole in the receiver for the hitch pin. I measured hole to ball to know exactly how far back it would sit, then measured hole to platform to see where the block sat in comparison to where the ball, thus the trailer tongue, would be sitting.
I measured on the platform back 9 to 10" and the front six (6) blocks sit centered over that area where the ball would sit so the FRONT 6 blocks are right where the ball would be and are a good or at least decent indicator.
Yes, the back two blocks are a bit behind where the ball would be. I should have stacked those last two on top of the front 6 but it won't make that big a difference because we are talking only 9" back from where the ball would be. Had I stacked those last two on top of the front blocks they would all be centered over the ball area. I could have also put the last two on the tail gate to help simulate trailer TONGUE weight.
Trailer towing compresses the springs more than the same weight in the box would and that was my real concern.

 

[brancky3]

EXACTLY as HTXGladiator said -
Center of gravity.
Does your trailer tongue sit in the box? Or about 10" behind the hole for the pin in the receiver?
I wasn't simulating payload - but trailer weight.
If I was simulating payload the best way to haul a load in the box is centered over rear axle and forward, not behind the axle.

The ball will sit behind the receiver so the trailer tongue weight is a few inches behind the receiver - not on the bumper, not on the receiver, but a bit behind because the ball mount sticks back of the receiver and back of the bumper.

I measured and the ball on my mount in the receiver on my truck would sit about 9 to 10 inches back of the round hole in the receiver for the hitch pin. I measured hole to ball to know exactly how far back it would sit, then measured hole to platform to see where the block sat in comparison to where the ball, thus the trailer tongue, would be sitting.
I measured on the platform back 9 to 10" and the front six (6) blocks sit centered over that area where the ball would sit so the FRONT 6 blocks are right where the ball would be and are a good or at least decent indicator.
Yes, the back two blocks are a bit behind where the ball would be. I should have stacked those last two on top of the front 6 but it won't make that big a difference because we are talking only 9" back from where the ball would be. Had I stacked those last two on top of the front blocks they would all be centered over the ball area. I could have also put the last two on the tail gate to help simulate trailer TONGUE weight.
Trailer towing compresses the springs more than the same weight in the box would and that was my real concern.

Gotcha. Sorry I missed that - that makes sense.

 

[WXman]

I figure that sooner or later, somebody with a Max Tow will install an aftermarket coil spring lift kit. When they do, buy their factory coils from them and pop those on your truck. Would be a great time to add some 3/4" poly spacers also for just a touch more space.

Then, you'll be able to put several hundred pounds of tongue weight on it and you'll be OK.

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