Torque specs? - sway bar links, track bar, shocks

[ShadowsPapa]

Right, we aren't talking about blasting everything with a gun as hard as possible. People aren't stupid.

Great example is wheel lugs. Nobody is torque wrenching those, just get them on good and tight. But, there is a torque spec, just ignored and it's maybe the most important thing to have torque spec on.

Actually, they are (stupid - I've worked with many, and our college auto class started out with 30 hot-shots that knew everything before they got there - we graduated 18).
I quit one job, walked right out, got my truck, backed up to the door, loaded my tools, and drove off - because of stupid techs taking shortcuts and dangerous work going out the door.
Yes, millions can get by - but those who do it right are not going to get into trouble, while those who don't, may.
I'm a factory trained and college educated tech, and have worked with and dealt with engineers on this stuff. There are reasons for the specs - if you don't like it, don't do it, it's that bloody simple. I asked for torque specs becuase I'm the sort that likes things right, safe, and reliable. Then you jump in and act like I'm dumb for even considering it. I didn't ask for that - I asked for specs.
In all of my years, I've never had a come-back. Always 100% rated. And now people rely on me for perfection in restorations. My cars win gold and best of show. I do things up right whenever possible. If you don't want to use specs, then don't! But don't call those who do fools for doing so The opposite can be true.

I've seen wheels come off -more than once we sent wreckers out to the interstate to retrieve wheels from fields and drag TRUCKS and cars in with busted up brake drums and rotors and other damage. I have a stack of wheels that some fool didn't tighten things right. The wheels on my 73 when I got it - holes chewed out, studs ruined, had to scrap the wheels. Betcha no torque wrench was used there.

Do whatever you want - go argue elsewhere how you don't have trouble - I stated this thread because I know the facts, I know bolts and nuts and tech in detail and I wanted specs, I asked for them..
Don't come here and tell a decades experienced tech they aren't necessary.

Blown head gaskets, messed up wheels, cracked heads, busted transmission cases....... I could show people stacks of troubles.

Now on the other hand, I've done so many wheels over the 45+ years I've worked on cars, trucks and tractors, I have a good feel for it, especially when using my own tools. I checked the torque on my JT wheels after I dug up the spec - all but one checked at right around 130 - and those were only about 2 or 3 degrees off of 130. Hardly any turn at all and it clicked. So experience does count. Once you've done a bunch of them WITH the torque correct, chances are you can do hundreds more without a wrench. So yes, it's not like an experienced person can't get it right.
When I checked the other bolts and fasteners, I was good on all but the lower shock bolts - and almost spot on for the track bar. (that's critical, and there are known issues with that, so I absolutely wanted the track bar torque spec!
Now if that truck goes in for anything else, they can't say anything was too loose or too tight.
Someone who has done hundreds of cars can likely do well, but those who haven't done that many, or even many Jeeps - this trained tech with a bit of bolt engineering knowledge does recommend torque.
Those who don't want to - it's their call, I'm glad I live here and not there. And if anyone wonders why, come to my shop and I'll show the stack of wheels....... LOL

I asked for specs - why do people have to argue that it's just plain not needed and there's no reason for it?

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[PyrPatriot]

there IS an issue with things being too tight. As an example, an acquaintance tried changing wheels/tires for a set I sold him. His JL's lug nuts wouldn't come off. He had a long breaker bar and a cheater bar. Nuts were not coming off. they had recently been changed at the dealership. He ended up having to go buy an impact driver to get them off. If this had been a flat tire on the road or trail, he would have had to call a tow truck.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

there IS an issue with things being too tight. As an example, an acquaintance tried changing wheels/tires for a set I sold him. His JL's lug nuts wouldn't come off. He had a long breaker bar and a cheater bar. Nuts were not coming off. they had recently been changed at the dealership. He ended up having to go buy an impact driver to get them off. If this had been a flat tire on the road or trail, he would have had to call a tow truck.

I may have to have my engineer friend write-up his thing, education, on bolts and fasteners, the plastic properties, limits, and so on. Too tight actualy makes the joint WEAKER because the bolt stretches beyond it's ability to go back. It's why some bolts they say "do NOT use them over again". They have already been taken to the edge. Tighten them again and they go beyond that edge.
Anyone note the specs on the track bar? Yeah, there's a torque spec in the one chart, but the other shows a spec then a number of degrees. This is calculated based on THREAD PITCH to get the correct bolt STRETCH. Torque alone isn't good enough on that joint, so they figure bolt stretch. If you used a micrometer on the bolt, then tightened it, you'd see it grew longer by a measureable amount. The number of degrees (what was it, 115 or something like that) is based on how far that bolt will stretch when the thread pitch and turns or fractions of a turn are figured in. It's like the old Chevy small block engines and lifter preload - loosen until it ticks, then tighten until the tick JUST disappears. That's zero preload - why half a turn? Because when you turn that nut 180 degrees, or half a turn, the nut pushes the rocker arm down an exact amount and pushes the push rod down into the lifter the right amount based on rocker arm ratio.
It's science.
Jeep must view that track bar bolt setting as mission critical since they use a spec in degrees- meaning bolt stretch regardless of how hard it turns or tight it is!
When an engineer wants that bolt stretched a certain amount - it's more than "how tight is it" - it's knowing what that bolt can take - and not take, and getting it just right.

 

[PyrPatriot]

It's why some bolts they say "do NOT use them over again". They have already been taken to the edge. Tighten them again and they go beyond that edge.

Note that one of the specs says not to re-use the bolts. When my bumper was replaced I ok'd them to re-use a bolt that the specs said not to re-use, even though the shop's system didn't have that requirement (they used the other service, not TechAuthority) and the Jeep dealership's TechAuthority subscription didn't have any note to use a fresh bolt, but the Factory Service Manual was very clear to not reuse a set of bolts attaching the bumper to the frame. If it was anything but the rear bumper, AND the dealership wasn't able to get the bolts in for another week due to supply issues, then I would have stuck with fresh bolts.

Jeep must view that track bar bolt setting as mission critical since they use a spec in degrees- meaning bolt stretch regardless of how hard it turns or tight it is!

Jeep engineers did a REALLY good job designing the JL and then put in even more work on the JT because it would be towing and hauling stuff. Fine work. Really fine work

 

[Renegade]

Right, we aren't talking about blasting everything with a gun as hard as possible. People aren't stupid.

Great example is wheel lugs. Nobody is torque wrenching those, just get them on good and tight. But, there is a torque spec, just ignored and it's maybe the most important thing to have torque spec on.

Yes, yes indeed, people ARE stupid. Where I work, we call that job security...

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yes, yes indeed, people ARE stupid. Where I work, we call that job security...

I worked a job for a few months in between others (was promised a management job, it just came about a year later than expected). There was a tech there who thought his job was at risk so he did things not according to spec or standard, figuring that they'd have to keep him as he was the only one who knew what was going on. Company caught wind of that and the guy was fired. He would have otherwise been fine.
Another guy and I were brought in to sort it all out and bring things up to spec and standard and make notes, document everything. We were secure as long as we chose. I later left for that management job.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Note that one of the specs says not to re-use the bolts. When my bumper was replaced I ok'd them to re-use a bolt that the specs said not to re-use, even though the shop's system didn't have that requirement (they used the other service, not TechAuthority) and the Jeep dealership's TechAuthority subscription didn't have any note to use a fresh bolt, but the Factory Service Manual was very clear to not reuse a set of bolts attaching the bumper to the frame. If it was anything but the rear bumper, AND the dealership wasn't able to get the bolts in for another week due to supply issues, then I would have stuck with fresh bolts.


Jeep engineers did a REALLY good job designing the JL and then put in even more work on the JT because it would be towing and hauling stuff. Fine work. Really fine work

You'd enjoy some of the discussion on the forum I run for AMCs - gets technical in design, engineering, and we have a couple of engineer members - one in aerospace and another who has proven a lot of "shade-tree" thinking to be bunk on his dyno testing and flow bench. We discuss bolts and fasteners, their properties, and experiences with builds using torque plates when boring and honing as compared to not - what caused various failures, oiling issues and so on. One guy designs and makes parts for Jeeps - retrofit serpentine belt setup for the 360, external oil pumps, oil pump mods that have been proven to even out the load on the drives, air suspension systems for various Jeeps (I rode in a GC he had set up with one - passenger wants out, simply hit a switch and they SLIDE out LOL)
There's a lot of BS - especially with one who scares the heck out of us with his brake thinking and another who thinks he's improved front suspensions but the rest of us see his "science" as scary, but there's enough engineering types and thinkers you get some good info there, factual stuff.

 

[PyrPatriot]

There's a lot of BS - especially with one who scares the heck out of us with his brake thinking and another who thinks he's improved front suspensions but the rest of us see his "science" as scary, but there's enough engineering types and thinkers you get some good info there, factual stuff.

I must have missed all that discussion

 

[Phred]

I did a search - found the lug nut torque spec thanks to whoever shared that months ago, but 15 minutes of searching have come up empty for the correct torque specs for track bar (especially axle end), sway bar links, and shocks.
After the spring and shock swap, I want to go back to factory spec. I have things to what is typical and usual for the trucks and cars I've worked on - and the bolt sizes, but I want to be sure on a truck not even 1 year old yet.
So - anyone willing to share correct proper torque specs for steering and suspension parts???????

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Thanks for that - I also like to have these degree specs as I know that's for the bolt stretch and better than a torque spec in the end. It's an engineering spec as much as anything.
I appreciate all of those who have posted the specs sought. I plan on doing what I've done with every car or truck I've owned - starting a tech notebook with specs, any changes I've made/mods and so on. I have a quick reference notebook on my cars - this JT is next.

 

[Phred]

I have found some conflicting torque values in the maintenance manual...but they are usually close .

 

[PyrPatriot]

I was wondering why the values were different for the control arms and stabalizer bolts but then I saw yours is for the rear suspension and mine is for the front.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I was wondering why the values were different for the control arms and stabalizer bolts but then I saw yours is for the rear suspension and mine is for the front.

Yup - this is the complimenting rear set.

I have also seen the differences Phred refers to, but they are usually very close.
And I wonder - although nothing is said directly in the charts posted, at times one set of values is the original new fastener torque where the other is the maintenance torque.
I've seen a torque value applied to new fasteners, fresh assemblies, while there's another one a bit less for used fasteners and maintenance.
Many of my tech books have differences noted. With Jeep had TSMs available but they'd take up a whole book shelf for one model and year.

 

[PyrPatriot]

Yup - this is the complimenting rear set.

I have also seen the differences Phred refers to, but they are usually very close.
And I wonder - although nothing is said directly in the charts posted, at times one set of values is the original new fastener torque where the other is the maintenance torque.
I've seen a torque value applied to new fasteners, fresh assemblies, while there's another one a bit less for used fasteners and maintenance.
Many of my tech books have differences noted. With Jeep had TSMs available but they'd take up a whole book shelf for one model and year.

Yep. It was a long process to print and re-scan the files into a searchable PDF to use IN ADDITION to the USB drive for seeing better pictures and watching instruction videos. Don't know if it will be worth printing the 10-15k pages of the service codes and how to resolve them, that stuff looks to be 2-3 times the mechanical stuff I printed

 

[Frenzyrider]

Not sure if this is what you want, but I only use it as a guide. I have the 2" mopar lift if you like to know.
Hope this will help.

Is the RR Stabar to frame basically the rear sway bar that connects to the frame?
What is the torque spec for the brake line or do we just hand tighten?

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