Clutch Recall... Wait... no recall????

[Munkey Boy]

Jeep has admitted "bad design" in their notices, the flash is more of a nanny for those who do NOT know how to drive a manual transmission. Under normal circumstances, the nanny will never affect torque; however, if the input and output is calculated to be different than expected for a specific amount of time, then it will go into limp mode until the extrapolated heat in the clutch assembly is reduced. Maths. The issues they've had and can replicate end up being more "pilot error" than anything specifically faulty with the clutch. Replacing X clutch with X clutch will not fix anything if the driver rests his foot on the pedal. There was a prior recall regarding air in the line with the master and slave which caused the same issue as riding the clutch and slipping it. Jeep managed to get the temp up to over 2000 degrees when the plate detonated. But yes, it is still a bad design. And I would agree as for a tall gear for reverse and having had to slip the hell up a slimy hill in other vehicles, this can and will be an issue.

I actually talked with Centerforce, kinda cool that they're in my back yard here. They are designing a COMPLETE system to replace the "bad design." This includes a single weighted flywheel, simple beefy pressure plate, AND hydraulics. No idea of when it will hit the market or how much, but it is on it's way. Certainly looks like the best solution; but as for the OEM with the flash fix, it's all they can feasibly do without sharing the blame with the drivers.

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[SteveInOrlando]

So on this truck would putting in a performance clutch resolve the issue, or is it more problematic than that?

From what I have read, the problem with the clutch really is due to overheating from the clutch design. they have tested the Centerforce clutches with much more HP and they were fine. Then again, there are forum members running Superchargers with no issues, so who knows?

the clutch would solve the first 2 issues on my list with the transmission.

 

[DanW]

From what I understand they are going to “measure / calculate“ how much engine torque is being made and figure when the clutch would be at a slip point and do a power cut when they figure it”s there and going to slip and overheat They have had a engine torque value in their engine software for years now. It”s all theoretical of course!!
They say the software bandaid won”t be available till the second quarter of 2021. Well that starts next week on April 1, so we“ll see what comes next.
I”ll be damned if Im going to get a PCM flash that reduces my power even more. Especially at a potential time when I may need it most.
I can”t understand why the don”t fix the damn thing right and put a good clutch set up in it that can handle whatever you throw at it. IT IS A JEEP!!!!
They”ve had worse recalls before and survived the cost.
Im sure their FOCUS group decided they need a 12# clutch pedal that EVERYONE can push in, to be competing in for sales.

seriously on this clutch issue, if they provide the labor, I will pay for a Centerforce clutch and have a reliable vehicle. They just under-designed the clutch.

Actually, my wife and I were discussing it the other day. This entire transmission seems like it was designed by someone who has never driven a manual transmission.

1. Non-weighted fly wheel
2. No clutch feel for the engagment point
3. Reverse that is geared so high, you are a dead man if you need to back up a hill in the mountains. Who needs to go 25MPH in reverse? Really?

The transmission is just a really bad design!

First, if it slips, how much slipping is going on is a known quantity. It is simply measured by the difference in the engine speed and wheel speed, given the gear.

Second, the problem is not the clutch, at all. It is in what is causing the clutch to slip excessively.

 

[DanW]

Jeep has admitted "bad design" in their notices, the flash is more of a nanny for those who do NOT know how to drive a manual transmission. Under normal circumstances, the nanny will never affect torque; however, if the input and output is calculated to be different than expected for a specific amount of time, then it will go into limp mode until the extrapolated heat in the clutch assembly is reduced. Maths. The issues they've had and can replicate end up being more "pilot error" than anything specifically faulty with the clutch. Replacing X clutch with X clutch will not fix anything if the driver rests his foot on the pedal. There was a prior recall regarding air in the line with the master and slave which caused the same issue as riding the clutch and slipping it. Jeep managed to get the temp up to over 2000 degrees when the plate detonated. But yes, it is still a bad design. And I would agree as for a tall gear for reverse and having had to slip the hell up a slimy hill in other vehicles, this can and will be an issue.

I actually talked with Centerforce, kinda cool that they're in my back yard here. They are designing a COMPLETE system to replace the "bad design." This includes a single weighted flywheel, simple beefy pressure plate, AND hydraulics. No idea of when it will hit the market or how much, but it is on it's way. Certainly looks like the best solution; but as for the OEM with the flash fix, it's all they can feasibly do without sharing the blame with the drivers.

Where have they admitted bad design? I've been all over the documents from both Jeep and NHTSA and I have not seen that at all. What they have admitted to involved not properly bleeding the hydraulic system. The parts added in Recall 1 were protective in nature in case of an uncontained fracturing of the flywheel.

If they admitted to a bad design, please post it. I've not even heard this from FCA sources, let alone official documentation.

 

[Bbannongmu]

Jeep has admitted "bad design" in their notices, the flash is more of a nanny for those who do NOT know how to drive a manual transmission. Under normal circumstances, the nanny will never affect torque; however, if the input and output is calculated to be different than expected for a specific amount of time, then it will go into limp mode until the extrapolated heat in the clutch assembly is reduced. Maths. The issues they've had and can replicate end up being more "pilot error" than anything specifically faulty with the clutch. Replacing X clutch with X clutch will not fix anything if the driver rests his foot on the pedal. There was a prior recall regarding air in the line with the master and slave which caused the same issue as riding the clutch and slipping it. Jeep managed to get the temp up to over 2000 degrees when the plate detonated. But yes, it is still a bad design. And I would agree as for a tall gear for reverse and having had to slip the hell up a slimy hill in other vehicles, this can and will be an issue.

I actually talked with Centerforce, kinda cool that they're in my back yard here. They are designing a COMPLETE system to replace the "bad design." This includes a single weighted flywheel, simple beefy pressure plate, AND hydraulics. No idea of when it will hit the market or how much, but it is on it's way. Certainly looks like the best solution; but as for the OEM with the flash fix, it's all they can feasibly do without sharing the blame with the drivers.

I’m on the wait list for the new Centerforce system. Can’t wait.

 

[jc1986]

I’m on the wait list for the new Centerforce system. Can’t wait.

Do you have an specific details on the new center force kit? On their site, both the dual and single are available or is there a newer one in the works?

 

[Bbannongmu]

Do you have an specific details on the new center force kit? On their site, both the dual and single are available or is there a newer one in the works?

I don’t have details other than they told me that the factory specs were inconsistent and the new clutch, flywheel and hydraulics kit is coming soon. Gotten a few “thank you for your patience “ emails with an mid April release date. This Reminds me to follow up with them to see if there’s been any updates. I’ll post if I get any actual substance.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

I don’t have details other than they told me that the factory specs were inconsistent and the new clutch, flywheel and hydraulics kit is coming soon. Gotten a few “thank you for your patience “ emails with an mid April release date. This Reminds me to follow up with them to see if there’s been any updates. I’ll post if I get any actual substance.

How do I get on that list. You can say what you want, I know the Centerforce kit will solve the non-weighted flywheel and the lack of clutch feel. I truly believe it will solve the meltdowns.

As for the concept that people are riding the clutch while driving. I have done road trips, when I get where I am headed you can smell the hot clutch. I have driven manual transmissions for over 30 years. I have never had this problem with another vehicle. I know this is a Jeep Forum and you guys love Jeep, but you are making excuses for their shitty design work. If this were people don't know how to drive MT, then every other manufacturer that still has MT in the market would have the problem and they don't. Jeep is the lone ticking time bomb from clutch detonations due to daily driving!

There are small number of MT, Jeep should do the right thing and find a permanent fix, either that or just give up and start installing Centerforce clutches. I bet Centerforce would cut them one heck of a deal.

 

[Bbannongmu]

I don’t have details other than they told me that the factory specs were inconsistent and the new clutch, flywheel and hydraulics kit is coming soon. Gotten a few “thank you for your patience “ emails. This Reminds me to follow up with them to see if there’s been any updates. I’ll post if I get any actual substance.

How do I get on that list. You can say what you want, I know the Centerforce kit will solve the non-weighted flywheel and the lack of clutch feel. I truly believe it will solve the meltdowns.

As for the concept that people are riding the clutch while driving. I have done road trips, when I get where I am headed you can smell the hot clutch. I have driven manual transmissions for over 30 years. I have never had this problem with another vehicle. I know this is a Jeep Forum and you guys love Jeep, but you are making excuses for their shitty design work. If this were people don't know how to drive MT, then every other manufacturer that still has MT in the market would have the problem and they don't. Jeep is the lone ticking time bomb from clutch detonations due to daily driving!

There are small number of MT, Jeep should do the right thing and find a permanent fix, either that or just give up and start installing Centerforce clutches. I bet Centerforce would cut them one heck of a deal.

I emailed them last year and then talked to Will by phone a couple of times. Tell them you connected with Brian Bannon - JTRSPARTACUS on the Jeep Gladiator forum. I just sent them an email and I’ll try to call again this week. Maybe some more inquiries will speed up final production. It’s got to be Better than what Jeep is providing!
https://www.centerforce.com/contact

 

[Munkey Boy]

Where have they admitted bad design? I've been all over the documents from both Jeep and NHTSA and I have not seen that at all. What they have admitted to involved not properly bleeding the hydraulic system. The parts added in Recall 1 were protective in nature in case of an uncontained fracturing of the flywheel.

If they admitted to a bad design, please post it. I've not even heard this from FCA sources, let alone official documentation.

RCLRPT-21V028-2204.PDF (nhtsa.gov)

Specifically page 4. "There is no defective part. The issue is the result of design specification."

That last part could mean several things, but it is the determination of a "bad design." It could be simply procedural (improper/insufficient bleeding of the system which was rectified in the first recall), it could be moving from a tried and true single flywheel/clutch pack to a dual mass to make the clutch easier to depress and consumer friendly (although dual mass has been used in racing for years and have proven to be able to take the abuse there), it could even mean that the plates are TOO well built/tough and do not glaze over or smoke to failure sooner but rather detonate when they've gone way past normal clutch tolerances (hardened also means brittle in material manufacturing), it could also mean that this vehicle allows for too much driver input with an archaic yet more fun manual transmission system (admit it, we're all being pretty stubborn holding on to our sticks. Euphemism intended ), but what the PCM flash does is take all those possibilities AND the uncontrollable variable of the driver out of the equation. This is the proper way to share the blame as FCA knows that stating officially that it was just "pilot error" is pure suicide and unprovable although it is very likely the root problem.

We will never be told exactly what the culprit is, admission of a defective part puts full blame on FCA and/or the clutch manufacturer which would cost them millions and would not fix the issue if it is the driver. The owners of the vehicles that grenaded will never definitively state that they rode the clutch to ignition, admission of that negates warranty and would cost the owner a new Jeep (kinda, insurance does cover stupid to an extent.) However, any future issues can be isolated and fully assumed by FCA by taking the driver out of the equation with a nanny. All that FCA can do here is meet halfway. The recall procedure will likely include a hydraulic line check and/or a dump test as well for the Y07 issued for earlier models 2018-2020 if not done prior effectively covering all the bases. I still see this as a Band-Aid on a broken arm, but that's because I see no reason to reinvent the (fly)wheel when it has worked quite well for the better part of a century.

But in the end, when the NHTSA says, "The issue is the result of design specification" that is the politely legal way to say it's a "bad design" while saying/not saying Jeep CANNOT be provably held completely at fault.

 

[DanW]

How do I get on that list. You can say what you want, I know the Centerforce kit will solve the non-weighted flywheel and the lack of clutch feel. I truly believe it will solve the meltdowns.

As for the concept that people are riding the clutch while driving. I have done road trips, when I get where I am headed you can smell the hot clutch. I have driven manual transmissions for over 30 years. I have never had this problem with another vehicle. I know this is a Jeep Forum and you guys love Jeep, but you are making excuses for their shitty design work. If this were people don't know how to drive MT, then every other manufacturer that still has MT in the market would have the problem and they don't. Jeep is the lone ticking time bomb from clutch detonations due to daily driving!

There are small number of MT, Jeep should do the right thing and find a permanent fix, either that or just give up and start installing Centerforce clutches. I bet Centerforce would cut them one heck of a deal.

The clutch itself did not cause the recall issue.

Meanwhile, I'm about to cross 44k miles on mine and am in the middle of a trip to Moab, which is this Jeep's second. It is on the original clutch, which feels as good as it did when new, and it is performing flawlessly. I tow a boat all summer, too. If this clutch were the problem, then mine would have been a burned out hulk a long time ago.

I'm sure the Centerforce feels nice, but they've had their issues. That's why there's a new one coming out.

 

[DanW]

RCLRPT-21V028-2204.PDF (nhtsa.gov)

Specifically page 4. "There is no defective part. The issue is the result of design specification."

That last part could mean several things, but it is the determination of a "bad design." It could be simply procedural (improper/insufficient bleeding of the system which was rectified in the first recall), it could be moving from a tried and true single flywheel/clutch pack to a dual mass to make the clutch easier to depress and consumer friendly (although dual mass has been used in racing for years and have proven to be able to take the abuse there), it could even mean that the plates are TOO well built/tough and do not glaze over or smoke to failure sooner but rather detonate when they've gone way past normal clutch tolerances (hardened also means brittle in material manufacturing), it could also mean that this vehicle allows for too much driver input with an archaic yet more fun manual transmission system (admit it, we're all being pretty stubborn holding on to our sticks. Euphemism intended ), but what the PCM flash does is take all those possibilities AND the uncontrollable variable of the driver out of the equation. This is the proper way to share the blame as FCA knows that stating officially that it was just "pilot error" is pure suicide and unprovable although it is very likely the root problem.

We will never be told exactly what the culprit is, admission of a defective part puts full blame on FCA and/or the clutch manufacturer which would cost them millions and would not fix the issue if it is the driver. The owners of the vehicles that grenaded will never definitively state that they rode the clutch to ignition, admission of that negates warranty and would cost the owner a new Jeep (kinda, insurance does cover stupid to an extent.) However, any future issues can be isolated and fully assumed by FCA by taking the driver out of the equation with a nanny. All that FCA can do here is meet halfway. The recall procedure will likely include a hydraulic line check and/or a dump test as well for the Y07 issued for earlier models 2018-2020 if not done prior effectively covering all the bases. I still see this as a Band-Aid on a broken arm, but that's because I see no reason to reinvent the (fly)wheel when it has worked quite well for the better part of a century.

But in the end, when the NHTSA says, "The issue is the result of design specification" that is the politely legal way to say it's a "bad design" while saying/not saying Jeep CANNOT be provably held completely at fault.

That's not FCA that said that. So they haven't admitted to anything. And NHTSA is frequently inaccurate.

Meanwhile, I've got nearly 44k on mine and it is on its second trip to Moab. It tows a fishing boat all summer long and is driven hard when not towing. But no issue and the clutch feels fine. But somehow it hasn't failed nor has its feel or performance deteriorated.

Watch me get well past 100k on this clutch. I've no doubt it will do it.

 

[Munkey Boy]

That's not FCA that said that. So they haven't admitted to anything. And NHTSA is frequently inaccurate.

Meanwhile, I've got nearly 44k on mine and it is on its second trip to Moab. It tows a fishing boat all summer long and is driven hard when not towing. But no issue and the clutch feels fine. But somehow it hasn't failed nor has its feel or performance deteriorated.

Watch me get well past 100k on this clutch. I've no doubt it will do it.

Good for you, you're actually one of the drivers that knows how to not ride the clutch. However, as I stated, "bad design" could mean several things. The end result is that the clutch failed catastrophically. Your driving style, like most able bodied manual transmission owners, will likely never see this happen to them, but the fact that we are out there without catastrophic failures throughout proves the point of "pilot error" over faulty clutch. The flash is a clever fix that removes the variable of the driver that cannot be controlled by FCA. Indeed the NHTSA is often inaccurate (I know, hard to believe that a government agency could be that way), but FCA has also been known to not be completely forthright. To that point, the NHTSA is the final say. And their final say was, "There is no defective part. The issue is the result of design specification." That very clever wording allows everyone in the equation to be at fault while not assuming full culpability by anyone. That includes FCA, the clutch manufacturer, AND the driver. FCA is the ONLY party in this circumstance required by law to fix the issue. Coming up with the flash fix, and checking for air in the hydraulics and possibly executing a dump test, is in compliance to their part of the "design specification" conclusion. FCA did not get Perry Masoned on the stand and try to flee the courtroom, but their compliance with an ingenious nanny is the admission of an issue. The fix is truly brilliant and is why the NHTSA is not asking for all 43,000 clutches to be replaced. They know the problem is with the driver primarily but cannot just come out and say that as it IS an issue that can be replicated, bad drivers will always be a given. This fix covers everything including those of us that this will never happen to and can hit Moab and enjoy the hell out of it. Cheers for that, have fun!

 

[SteveInOrlando]

Good for you, you're actually one of the drivers that knows how to not ride the clutch. However, as I stated, "bad design" could mean several things. The end result is that the clutch failed catastrophically. Your driving style, like most able bodied manual transmission owners, will likely never see this happen to them, but the fact that we are out there without catastrophic failures throughout proves the point of "pilot error" over faulty clutch. The flash is a clever fix that removes the variable of the driver that cannot be controlled by FCA. Indeed the NHTSA is often inaccurate (I know, hard to believe that a government agency could be that way), but FCA has also been known to not be completely forthright. To that point, the NHTSA is the final say. And their final say was, "There is no defective part. The issue is the result of design specification." That very clever wording allows everyone in the equation to be at fault while not assuming full culpability by anyone. That includes FCA, the clutch manufacturer, AND the driver. FCA is the ONLY party in this circumstance required by law to fix the issue. Coming up with the flash fix, and checking for air in the hydraulics and possibly executing a dump test, is in compliance to their part of the "design specification" conclusion. FCA did not get Perry Masoned on the stand and try to flee the courtroom, but their compliance with an ingenious nanny is the admission of an issue. The fix is truly brilliant and is why the NHTSA is not asking for all 43,000 clutches to be replaced. They know the problem is with the driver primarily but cannot just come out and say that as it IS an issue that can be replicated, bad drivers will always be a given. This fix covers everything including those of us that this will never happen to and can hit Moab and enjoy the hell out of it. Cheers for that, have fun!

If this were driver error, every manufacturer with a manual transmission would be having the same issue!

They aren't!

This is a design flaw plain and simple!

You can talk it to death! It is still a design flaw! Your 6 mile long post doesn't mean this isn't a design flaw!

 

[Gladman]

In some posts mention was made of the non-weighted flywheel.
Is this a function or related characteristic of the ESS system?

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