Clutch Recall... Wait... no recall????

[SteveInOrlando]

In some posts mention was made of the non-weighted flywheel.
Is this a function or related characteristic of the ESS system?

Not to my knowledge. It is just a design choice. The weighted flywheel means inertia from the flywheel helps the engine at low RPM when starting to move. It makes it easier to start without stalling, especially when in mud or sand, on rocks, or on a hill. They are more common on vehicles with smaller engines.

I don't think they use weighted flywheels in automatics.

Here is a sales video from Centerforce clutch with a JL stock and after installing a centerforce clutch. They start rolling up a small hill until the engine stalls because the RPM got too low. After installing the centerforce clutch, the weight of the flywheel helps the jeep crawl all the way up the hill with no throttle applied.


From what I hear, this also improves the clutch feel so you can work the friction point better when starting and stopping. I have no idea how they could get the clutch feel back with a hydraulic clutch, but here is hoping.

It is all a mute point right now. From what Centerforce tells me, they can't keep up with demand and the backlog of orders is getting long.

 

[Gladman]

From the info in your first paragraph that is exactly why I wondered if it was related to the anticipated many starts.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

I cooked a clutch in my old 3000GT VR4 when I modified it to have more horsepower than the clutch could hold. It still didn't catch fire!

I am really not sure how these managed to get so hot they exploded. That is insane.

There are 2 times when mine gets hot enough for me to smell it.

1. Hard acceleration up an on ramp to the highway. You have to keep the RPM high to get enough HP to accelerate hard.

2. Rolling down the highway at 80MPH. If you stop and roll the windows down you can smell the clutch.

In neither of those cases is my foot anywhere near the clutch when the power is applied. It really makes me wonder if the clutch is just staying partially engaged. I ride with my left foot flat on the floor not even touching the clutch pedal, or on the foot brace on the left.

I have never had another vehicle that you could smell the clutch in either of these cases!

 

[SteveInOrlando]

From the info in your first paragraph that is exactly why I wondered if it was related to the anticipated many starts.

I hadn't thought of that. You may be right.

Luckily, my ESS is rarely activated as I tend to keep the clutch in with the vehicle in gear unless I am sitting waiting on my wife. I was one of those people taught to always keep it ready when stopped in case I need to roll quick to avoid another driver.

 

[Gladman]

Yes, smelling clutch with little demand on the friction material seems odd.

 

[Gladman]

I hadn't thought of that. You may be right.

Luckily, my ESS is rarely activated as I tend to keep the clutch in with the vehicle in gear unless I am sitting waiting on my wife. I was one of those people taught to always keep it ready when stopped in case I need to roll quick to avoid another driver.

So does your JeeP have some kind of Hill hold system?

 

[SteveInOrlando]

So does your JeeP have some kind of Hill hold system?

They do seem to have hill assist which basically holds the brake for a few seconds when you are sitting on a hill. I edged too far forward on a hill one day, I decided to roll back a couple feet, but when I lifted my foot it didn't roll. I had to put it in neutral and let the clutch out to get it to roll backward.

I don't see a button for it like I had in some of my other vehicles.

 

[Gladman]

True, you would think this could be disabled if the driver desired.

 

[Munkey Boy]

If this were driver error, every manufacturer with a manual transmission would be having the same issue!

They aren't!

This is a design flaw plain and simple!

You can talk it to death! It is still a design flaw! Your 6 mile long post doesn't mean this isn't a design flaw!

Calm down, Steve. No need to throw exclamation points at the end of every sentence. Simply saying that you disagree and stating why is enough and respectfully preferred.

The reason for my six mile long post, and this seven mile long one, maybe eight, was to show that "design flaw", as you put it, is as vague as my "bad design" interpretation of the NTHSA's "design specification" statement. Definitely not "plain and simple" in any LEGAL sense. In case you missed it, we are actually saying the same thing because we both agree that the single flywheel/clutch plate system that has been used forever works just fine even with bad driving techniques.

The problem then is WHAT "design flaw" (and repeating that with exclamation points will never make it true; discourse is welcome, yelling is not helpful and I don't think I've done anything to deserve that.) Is it the clutch plate? Is it the dual mass flywheel? Is it the hydraulics? Is it subpar assembly procedures? Is it the fact that this is still a Chrysler product and they generally suck in spite of their rich, Corinthian leather? Is it that there is a possibility that the driver uses the clutch as a foot rest? All of these possibilities (except Ricardo Montalban) would make the clutch slip and build up enough heat for this clutch to grenade as FCA replicated. The fact that this isn't happening everywhere across multiple manufacturers actually lends to proving that the "design flaw" is not with the parts or similar setups, it is also not with any procedural issues of line bleeding as the first recall took care of that. And since there have only been a handful of detonations over 43,000 units, that also speaks to the MT reliability dismissing any flaws in the design of the parts and/or system.

There however remains one more variable that is unaccounted for. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. That is the driver. Now, if this setup isn't ready for bad drivers (likely IMO), that is what the flash fixes by taking them out of the equation. This will NOT affect anyone that can properly use a manual transmission. And in spite of that assurance, like you, I will definitely be looking to Centerforce if for only the peace of mind not in detonation, but rather never activating an irrelevant nanny. That, and they said they'd give me a tour of their place. Cool cats with big machines, Yay!

But in the end, we agree that this new design ain't worth the squeeze. All I ask is that you look at the fix as analytically as I have from not only FCA's standpoint, but also the NHTSA's. They agree that there is an issue, they agree that the issue is not any part, they actually DO want to avoid any further detonations, they agree that a nanny will fix this, and I hope that my long-windedness has shown that they BOTH have been reduced to focusing on the driver hence the flash. That means that if FCA and every other manufacturer AND the NHTSA had their way, there would NEVER be another manual transmission ever as an option. Automatics can be completely controlled and regulated. "You can have any color as long as it's black." - Henry Ford. This will likely turn into a legal battle or a negotiation leverage point between FCA and the clutch manufacturer, just see it as the primary assessment of this battlefield. And we are the grenades.

Actually nine miles long on this one, maybe twelve. You're welcome.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

Calm down, Steve. No need to throw exclamation points at the end of every sentence. Simply saying that you disagree and stating why is enough and respectfully preferred.

The reason for my six mile long post, and this seven mile long one, maybe eight, was to show that "design flaw", as you put it, is as vague as my "bad design" interpretation of the NTHSA's "design specification" statement. Definitely not "plain and simple" in any LEGAL sense. In case you missed it, we are actually saying the same thing because we both agree that the single flywheel/clutch plate system that has been used forever works just fine even with bad driving techniques.

The problem then is WHAT "design flaw" (and repeating that with exclamation points will never make it true; discourse is welcome, yelling is not helpful and I don't think I've done anything to deserve that.) Is it the clutch plate? Is it the dual mass flywheel? Is it the hydraulics? Is it subpar assembly procedures? Is it the fact that this is still a Chrysler product and they generally suck in spite of their rich, Corinthian leather? Is it that there is a possibility that the driver uses the clutch as a foot rest? All of these possibilities (except Ricardo Montalban) would make the clutch slip and build up enough heat for this clutch to grenade as FCA replicated. The fact that this isn't happening everywhere across multiple manufacturers actually lends to proving that the "design flaw" is not with the parts or similar setups, it is also not with any procedural issues of line bleeding as the first recall took care of that. And since there have only been a handful of detonations over 43,000 units, that also speaks to the MT reliability dismissing any flaws in the design of the parts and/or system.

There however remains one more variable that is unaccounted for. "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. That is the driver. Now, if this setup isn't ready for bad drivers (likely IMO), that is what the flash fixes by taking them out of the equation. This will NOT affect anyone that can properly use a manual transmission. And in spite of that assurance, like you, I will definitely be looking to Centerforce if for only the peace of mind not in detonation, but rather never activating an irrelevant nanny. That, and they said they'd give me a tour of their place. Cool cats with big machines, Yay!

But in the end, we agree that this new design ain't worth the squeeze. All I ask is that you look at the fix as analytically as I have from not only FCA's standpoint, but also the NHTSA's. They agree that there is an issue, they agree that the issue is not any part, they actually DO want to avoid any further detonations, they agree that a nanny will fix this, and I hope that my long-windedness has shown that they BOTH have been reduced to focusing on the driver hence the flash. That means that if FCA and every other manufacturer AND the NHTSA had their way, there would NEVER be another manual transmission ever as an option. Automatics can be completely controlled and regulated. "You can have any color as long as it's black." - Henry Ford. This will likely turn into a legal battle or a negotiation leverage point between FCA and the clutch manufacturer, just see it as the primary assessment of this battlefield. And we are the grenades.

Actually nine miles long on this one, maybe twelve. You're welcome.

I still disagree that the drivers have anything to do with this.

I get what you have said. The simple truth is, no other manufacturer has this problem! I have seen some crazy boosted cars completely fry clutches. I have done so myself. I have never, had one turn into a bomb.

I have also had my clutch in this vehicle get hot enough to smell simply driving down the highway at 80MPH. That is not driver error. Accelerating up an on ramp onto a highway is not driver error.

30+ years of driving manual transmissions, I have never had a stock vehicle that had clutch overheating problems driving down the highway. That is not driver error, ever. That is a seriously flawed design.

I trust engineers as far as I can throw them. I had an engineer write out a report that an A-10 Aircraft shot itself. His theory was the rifling in the barrel was so bad, the aircraft outflew the bullet after it came out of the barrel, then the bullet magically sped up and hit the aircraft in the back of the tail.

It wasn't a pretty day for him when I sent it to his boss! I wish I could do the same for whoever wrote the report you guys were discussing.

That report was simply a way to whitewash the situation so nobody gets sued. They will detune our vehicles removing the little horsepower we have and the only losers here are us, the consumers.

If the vehicle is rated at a certain horsepower and torque, the clutch should be able to handle that. Detuning simply reinforces that they designed something incapable of handling the power from the engine. I am guessing the V8 option will be Automatic only since FCA seems incapable of designing a manual transmission anymore.

 

[Munkey Boy]

I still disagree that the drivers have anything to do with this.

I get what you have said. The simple truth is, no other manufacturer has this problem! I have seen some crazy boosted cars completely fry clutches. I have done so myself. I have never, had one turn into a bomb.

I have also had my clutch in this vehicle get hot enough to smell simply driving down the highway at 80MPH. That is not driver error. Accelerating up an on ramp onto a highway is not driver error.

30+ years of driving manual transmissions, I have never had a stock vehicle that had clutch overheating problems driving down the highway. That is not driver error, ever. That is a seriously flawed design.

I trust engineers as far as I can throw them. I had an engineer write out a report that an A-10 Aircraft shot itself. His theory was the rifling in the barrel was so bad, the aircraft outflew the bullet after it came out of the barrel, then the bullet magically sped up and hit the aircraft in the back of the tail.

It wasn't a pretty day for him when I sent it to his boss! I wish I could do the same for whoever wrote the report you guys were discussing.

That report was simply a way to whitewash the situation so nobody gets sued. They will detune our vehicles removing the little horsepower we have and the only losers here are us, the consumers.

If the vehicle is rated at a certain horsepower and torque, the clutch should be able to handle that. Detuning simply reinforces that they designed something incapable of handling the power from the engine. I am guessing the V8 option will be Automatic only since FCA seems incapable of designing a manual transmission anymore.

Excellent, I respect that you disagree. I'm truly with you, buddy, especially regarding engineers. I ran high steel in the Bay Area for years and constantly wished that we were allowed to incinerate at least three engineers and architects a year just to thin out the damn herds. Told the head of Sony for the West that he was an idiot only to hear the delicious, dulcet tones of hushed awe from his sycophantic plebes. He actually started listening to me after that and agreed with my assessment. No magic bullets, just trying to make metal do what it cannot no matter how many times you draw it in CAD.

As to your specific issues with your Gladiator, I would have to narrow the focus. When was it built? If 2020, was the recall taken care of from early 2020? If it's 2021, has the dealer checked it under warranty? Did they find air in the hydraulics? Did they perform a dump test? Is there any possibility of you resting your foot on the clutch at all as it takes way too little pressure to disengage it enough to cause friction? Seriously, this clutch is the softest pedal I have ever known and it would not take much. The guy that fried his Wrangler was doing 35 in third gear on a very low incline. No accusations, just presenting reasonable doubt that the detonations may be related to an unknowingly placed foot.

I also agree that this is DEFINITELY a whitewash to cover bases in a lawsuit, everything is when it is as painfully vague as this. But they're playing the game right and legally. I don't need or want a nanny just as you don't either; however, there are drivers out there that do. Fortunately for us, we will never see this nanny kick in as it does not detune or lower torque under normal circumstances. I also have 30+ years behind a manual and have smoked several without detonation. But this dual mass flywheel thing seems absurd given that big dumb chunks of metal are flawlessly big and dumb. Why they went with this design is anyone's guess. They've been proven reliable and strong in racing; so, they probably saw a benefit somewhere in ease of operation, weight, interaction with other systems like ESS, assembly efficiency, who knows and it could simply be pennies on the dollar. But here we are. And if the parts cannot be determined to be the flaw, there's not much that can be done other than a course correction. The cleverness here is that it will cost them next to nothing and likely fix everything. Replacing 43,000 clutches will not be cheap especially if it is replaced with the same style without removing the one variable in the equation out of their control. However, if they just went back to that big dumb chunk of metal, I think we'd all feel much more confident. It's like gravity, it's still just a theory but as it has done so in the past so it shall in the future. Why they didn't stick with what worked IS the "bad design", "design flaw", and "issue with design specification" because it allowed that big dumb chunk of metal to let us be big dumb chunks of flesh with our big dumb chunks of metal. It's a Jeep thing?

And the V-8 won't matter if it's manual or auto, it'll be well over $80,000 either way. At that point, it better come with a chauffer and some Grey Poupon.

 

[Hootbro]

FWIW, TFL Car did a video on the all electric Wrangler concept vehicle that has the same six speed transmission. They mention that Jeep used a upgrade clutch for it.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

FWIW, TFL Car did a video on the all electric Wrangler concept vehicle that has the same six speed transmission. They mention that Jeep used a upgrade clutch for it.

So what is the super beefed up clutch the guy mentioned?

I can only imagine the torque numbers on this.

 

[SteveInOrlando]

Excellent, I respect that you disagree. I'm truly with you, buddy, especially regarding engineers. I ran high steel in the Bay Area for years and constantly wished that we were allowed to incinerate at least three engineers and architects a year just to thin out the damn herds. Told the head of Sony for the West that he was an idiot only to hear the delicious, dulcet tones of hushed awe from his sycophantic plebes. He actually started listening to me after that and agreed with my assessment. No magic bullets, just trying to make metal do what it cannot no matter how many times you draw it in CAD.

As to your specific issues with your Gladiator, I would have to narrow the focus. When was it built? If 2020, was the recall taken care of from early 2020? If it's 2021, has the dealer checked it under warranty? Did they find air in the hydraulics? Did they perform a dump test? Is there any possibility of you resting your foot on the clutch at all as it takes way too little pressure to disengage it enough to cause friction? Seriously, this clutch is the softest pedal I have ever known and it would not take much. The guy that fried his Wrangler was doing 35 in third gear on a very low incline. No accusations, just presenting reasonable doubt that the detonations may be related to an unknowingly placed foot.

I also agree that this is DEFINITELY a whitewash to cover bases in a lawsuit, everything is when it is as painfully vague as this. But they're playing the game right and legally. I don't need or want a nanny just as you don't either; however, there are drivers out there that do. Fortunately for us, we will never see this nanny kick in as it does not detune or lower torque under normal circumstances. I also have 30+ years behind a manual and have smoked several without detonation. But this dual mass flywheel thing seems absurd given that big dumb chunks of metal are flawlessly big and dumb. Why they went with this design is anyone's guess. They've been proven reliable and strong in racing; so, they probably saw a benefit somewhere in ease of operation, weight, interaction with other systems like ESS, assembly efficiency, who knows and it could simply be pennies on the dollar. But here we are. And if the parts cannot be determined to be the flaw, there's not much that can be done other than a course correction. The cleverness here is that it will cost them next to nothing and likely fix everything. Replacing 43,000 clutches will not be cheap especially if it is replaced with the same style without removing the one variable in the equation out of their control. However, if they just went back to that big dumb chunk of metal, I think we'd all feel much more confident. It's like gravity, it's still just a theory but as it has done so in the past so it shall in the future. Why they didn't stick with what worked IS the "bad design", "design flaw", and "issue with design specification" because it allowed that big dumb chunk of metal to let us be big dumb chunks of flesh with our big dumb chunks of metal. It's a Jeep thing?

And the V-8 won't matter if it's manual or auto, it'll be well over $80,000 either way. At that point, it better come with a chauffer and some Grey Poupon.

My vehicle was manufactured in Sep 2020. The first clutch recall was supposedly checked before they delivered the vehicle.

I drive down the highway with my left foot resting on the floor nowhere near the clutch. I am definitely not riding the clutch pedal.

My other quirk is most of the time I drive bare footed. I would definitely know if my foot was touching the pedal.

 

[Hootbro]

So what is the super beefed up clutch the guy mentioned?

I can only imagine the torque numbers on this.

Being a one off, it would not surprise me if they went off the shelf and it had a Centerforce Clutch in it. Just speculation on my part though.

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