Just turned 2k miles.. 2 questions

[ShadowsPapa]

WHAT?!



I'm not a fan of ESS is because it's new and unnerving. We're raised to not have a car engine turn off, so it's very unsettling for it to happen multiple times in one trip.

Logically (), I'm not a fan because of the age-old belief that starting/stopping your engine is one of the worst things you can do to it. My dad worked at Boeing for 40 years, 60s-00s, and the run-about work trucks were never shut off except to gas them up. Regularly hit 300k miles.

The number of cars with this feature, however, seem to justify it is a "feature" that is here to stay. I just hope it's not something that is going to screw us in 5-10 years with new starters, ring gears, etc.

These are not your father's engines - or starters. I restore starters in my shop - I'm extremely impressed with what modern starters do and can handle compared even to 1990. The starter i my SX4 went over 163,000 miles and was pulled because I swapped engines - it's still on my shelf and still in great shape. The one in that car now came with the engine - 100,000 miles on it. It reached 133,000 miles before the brushes wore down. I restored it and only had to put brushes in it. The rest was great. inside. (it got all new finishes, yellow zinc plating on the metal parts, etc.)
Modern oils also protect better so it's not like you don't have an oil film each time you restart (and this is a short stop so you don't drain oil out of anything in that few minutes)

Idling is actually worse on an engine than shutting it off. I've always shut my vehicles down if I wasn't going to get right back to it - run into the house for something i forgot - shut it off. Idling is bad. Likely those vehicles would have gone LONGER with less idling.
While it's true that an engine like a V8 has that timing chain that gets smacked to get that cam moving on each start - there isn't that hard pull on these like those had. Turning a camshaft in a big V8 against the spring pressure on the lifters pushing on that cam - there's a lot of force but the double-roller chains helped to take care of some of that - and getting rid of the NYLON on the cam sprocket helped as well.
The only things that might have been helped with fewer starts- referring to legacy larger engines, V8, etc. - timing chain (and sprockets), that sort of thing but for the rest - pistons, rods, bearings, valves, rocker arms, rings, etc. - idling is worse, stopping and starting should have no real impact on those - pistons get shoved back and forth as amazing speeds hundreds of times a minute - or more. Shove the piston up - sudden stop at the top, now reverse and drag it back down........

To me it's the care that makes things last - obviously for those trucks they got good oil, good filters, frequent changes,, care......... that made them last. Someone cared and did routine maintenance.

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[red/green hawk]

Again, no it will not. Only if the cabin temperature is not down to your setting or it can't keep up in hot weather. Having AC on does not disable ESS.
I can prove that with every trip I make because mine is always on in Iowa after about mid-march.
It was 88 today, AC was on and once the cabin temp was down - the ESS worked. It doesn't stay shut down long due to the sun and heat, but it works.

I'm not sure where people are getting the "AC keeps it from working" bit but that's been covered many times here.

I'll 2nd this. My auto start/stop works with AC on. It was over 100 here couple weeks back and it engaged with blower going 3/4 in stop and go rush hour traffic. Granted it might not engage at every stop or for very long for that matter but it still engages.

 

[MPMB]

These are not your father's engines - or starters. I restore starters in my shop - I'm extremely impressed with what modern starters do and can handle compared even to 1990. The starter i my SX4 went over 163,000 miles and was pulled because I swapped engines - it's still on my shelf and still in great shape. The one in that car now came with the engine - 100,000 miles on it. It reached 133,000 miles before the brushes wore down. I restored it and only had to put brushes in it. The rest was great. inside. (it got all new finishes, yellow zinc plating on the metal parts, etc.)
Modern oils also protect better so it's not like you don't have an oil film each time you restart (and this is a short stop so you don't drain oil out of anything in that few minutes)

Idling is actually worse on an engine than shutting it off. I've always shut my vehicles down if I wasn't going to get right back to it - run into the house for something i forgot - shut it off. Idling is bad. Likely those vehicles would have gone LONGER with less idling.
While it's true that an engine like a V8 has that timing chain that gets smacked to get that cam moving on each start - there isn't that hard pull on these like those had. Turning a camshaft in a big V8 against the spring pressure on the lifters pushing on that cam - there's a lot of force but the double-roller chains helped to take care of some of that - and getting rid of the NYLON on the cam sprocket helped as well.
The only things that might have been helped with fewer starts- referring to legacy larger engines, V8, etc. - timing chain (and sprockets), that sort of thing but for the rest - pistons, rods, bearings, valves, rocker arms, rings, etc. - idling is worse, stopping and starting should have no real impact on those - pistons get shoved back and forth as amazing speeds hundreds of times a minute - or more. Shove the piston up - sudden stop at the top, now reverse and drag it back down........

To me it's the care that makes things last - obviously for those trucks they got good oil, good filters, frequent changes,, care......... that made them last. Someone cared and did routine maintenance.

Oh stop with your knowledge. ?

Reliability gains in the 80s-90s really messed with the previous generation, which filtered to their kids (me). I remember many nights my dad spent in the garage working on the engines of our cars. He had to put in a new engine in our '78 Blazer with under 80,000 miles on it. My parents start looking for a new car at 100k ('19 Volvo V60, '12 Rav4, '06 CRV).

My wife is super gun-shy about any vehicle around 100k on the clock. I have to remind her that vehicles today have much greater reliability, and in most cases, the mechanicals will last longer than electrical systems.

Cars with 60-80k miles aren't high-mile vehicles anymore. My Expedition, despite having the 5.4 tri-valve, didn't require any serious maintenance (beyond oil/filters) until 130k miles. And that was wheel bearings and greasing everything.

 

[arneb04]

My ESS is intermittent and it is 100% related to the a/c and cabin temp. If my auto cc is on with the cab shut up, ESS works almost every stop even when it’s 100F. If I don’t touch the auto cc and roll a window down for a bit and let heat in, ESS never operates. I can predict when it will and won’t pretty reliably.

 

[Jas504]

These are not your father's engines - or starters. I restore starters in my shop - I'm extremely impressed with what modern starters do and can handle compared even to 1990. The starter i my SX4 went over 163,000 miles and was pulled because I swapped engines - it's still on my shelf and still in great shape. The one in that car now came with the engine - 100,000 miles on it. It reached 133,000 miles before the brushes wore down. I restored it and only had to put brushes in it. The rest was great. inside. (it got all new finishes, yellow zinc plating on the metal parts, etc.)
Modern oils also protect better so it's not like you don't have an oil film each time you restart (and this is a short stop so you don't drain oil out of anything in that few minutes)

Idling is actually worse on an engine than shutting it off. I've always shut my vehicles down if I wasn't going to get right back to it - run into the house for something i forgot - shut it off. Idling is bad. Likely those vehicles would have gone LONGER with less idling.
While it's true that an engine like a V8 has that timing chain that gets smacked to get that cam moving on each start - there isn't that hard pull on these like those had. Turning a camshaft in a big V8 against the spring pressure on the lifters pushing on that cam - there's a lot of force but the double-roller chains helped to take care of some of that - and getting rid of the NYLON on the cam sprocket helped as well.
The only things that might have been helped with fewer starts- referring to legacy larger engines, V8, etc. - timing chain (and sprockets), that sort of thing but for the rest - pistons, rods, bearings, valves, rocker arms, rings, etc. - idling is worse, stopping and starting should have no real impact on those - pistons get shoved back and forth as amazing speeds hundreds of times a minute - or more. Shove the piston up - sudden stop at the top, now reverse and drag it back down........

To me it's the care that makes things last - obviously for those trucks they got good oil, good filters, frequent changes,, care......... that made them last. Someone cared and did routine maintenance.

I'm not worried about the starters wearing out. I'm worried about the 50 different sensors and electrical/computer components needed to make this system work. All of which probably saves about 1/2 gallon per year if you're lucky.
Its unnecessary if you ask me.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I'm not worried about the starters wearing out. I'm worried about the 50 different sensors and electrical/computer components needed to make this system work. All of which probably saves about 1/2 gallon per year if you're lucky.
Its unnecessary if you ask me.

If it's so unnecessary why is Jeep only one of many many using it? It's coming and its use growing.

It's not just about idling and fuel use (although that's part of it) it's about meeting upcoming changes in laws, etc. It's about EMISSIONS in a large way.
What you or others think is necessary or not is irrelevant. It exists, even in non-US vehicles. In fact, that's where it all started. Europe and Asia. Have you ever driven in Korean cities?

The technology is standard on all new Volvo vehicles, and every 2018 Ford and Lincoln vehicle that has stop/start technology, a total of 10 models - that from 2018.
Add Jaguar, Mercedes, Land Rover Range Rover, Several models of Chevy cars and trucks, Cadillac, Acura, Honda (reviews say Honda is among the worst behaved)

This is a source claiming even more results over-all - (initially it was figured at 3%+ fuel savings and 3%+ for emissions reduction)
For non-electric vehicles fuel economy gains from this technology are typically in the range of 3-10 percent, potentially as high as 12 percent. In the United States, idling wastes approximately 14.8 billion liters (3.9 billion U.S. gallons; 3.3 billion Imperial gallons) of gasoline per year.

For some cities, states and counties, it's EMISSIONS and there are anti-idling laws that are growing in scope and number.3% when combined with other actions is a huge deal in some cities. Big difference in breathing or not in some places.

Time for America to start seeing outside of their own garages. There's a world out there - and it doesn't revolve around us. Doesn't matter what you like - it's here to stay and growing in number.
People dislike what they don't understand. Even if it's for a greater good, it will be argued against because of personal dislikes and not with sound logic, but with dislike and hate.

For those open to learning - and engineering, here's something from one of the engineers involved when answering "but won't it wear out my starter" question -

"Automotive engineers don't use 'traditional' starter motors in these situations," he explained. "The starter used for start-stop systems combines several technologies."

(1) The gear ratio from the starter-drive pinion to the flywheel ring gear is optimized to make the starter's motor turn more slowly. This can be done without materially changing the design of the transmission or flywheel at all on existing designs.

Crucially, this reduces starter-motor speed (in RPM), since 90 percent of starter-motor brush wear occurs not during cranking, but during the coast-down after the start has finished. If a higher-torque motor can spin more slowly, its coast-down time is shorter, increasing its longevity.

(2) The composition of the carbon and copper brushes on a start-stop motor differs from its traditional counterparts to increase longevity without accelerating the wear on the commutator.

(3) Rather than rely on oil-impregnated bushings for the rotating assemblies, start-stop starters mostly use needle bearings.

(4) The solenoid on start-stop starters decouples the mechanical action of engaging the drive pinion into the flywheel from the electrical action of stopping and starting the motor.

This allows for a dedicated design to turn power on and off to the motor, optimizing contact design and wear, against contacts that have to be integrated as part of a spring-loaded plunger.

This also reduces the electrical load requires to turn the engine, so that there is enough current available for accessories/lighting to operate during the start event.

(5) Finally, start-stop motors are integrated with other technologies that identify when each cylinder of the engine will reach top-dead center.
That lets the fuel injectors pulse and fire during the middle of a complete rotation of the crank, against having to wait for a complete revolution that lets the first cylinder reach that position to start the fuel-spark timing sequence.
-------------

As a person who works on and has worked on various automotive electric systems for years, starters, alternators, and other fun stuff - he's on-target here. Don't worry about that starter - even before ESS starters were lasting over a lifetime IF the owner wasn't an idiot and failed to maintain the vehicle or insisted "just 2 more seconds, I know it will start" and keeps cranking until it does. Man, people fry things by being impatient (which is likely where some of the hate for ESS comes from - loss of control, impatience - want to be spinning tires before the next guy can move!)

 

[AZCooWhip]

Is your a/c on all the time? That'll keep it from shutting off.

This ... if I recollect ...Louisiana is hot. Here in AZ mine never stops during hot temps. Says it on cluster when it doesn’t.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This ... if I recollect ...Louisiana is hot. Here in AZ mine never stops during hot temps. Says it on cluster when it doesn’t.

Right - but the act of having AC on does NOT disable ESS. Only when it isn't at the desired temperature or isn't keeping up with your set temperature will it not shut the engine off.
But having AC on - and like mine, leaving it to auto which means AC is on any time I drive it in the summer, ESS still works.
My point is that turning the AC on and leaving it on does NOT disable ESS. ESS works in AC mode - IF AC is keeping up.
Once it reaches your set temperature, if it can, ESS will kick in even in AC mode.

Some say that if you run AC or leave AC on, ESS doesn't work - that is not correct.

 

[AZCooWhip]

Right - but the act of having AC on does NOT disable ESS. Only when it isn't at the desired temperature or isn't keeping up with your set temperature will it not shut the engine off.
But having AC on - and like mine, leaving it to auto which means AC is on any time I drive it in the summer, ESS still works.
My point is that turning the AC on and leaving it on does NOT disable ESS. ESS works in AC mode - IF AC is keeping up.
Once it reaches your set temperature, if it can, ESS will kick in even in AC mode.

Some say that if you run AC or leave AC on, ESS doesn't work - that is not correct.

This is correct. I over simplified.

 

[Jas504]

If it's so unnecessary why is Jeep only one of many many using it? It's coming and its use growing.

It's not just about idling and fuel use (although that's part of it) it's about meeting upcoming changes in laws, etc. It's about EMISSIONS in a large way.
What you or others think is necessary or not is irrelevant. It exists, even in non-US vehicles. In fact, that's where it all started. Europe and Asia. Have you ever driven in Korean cities?

The technology is standard on all new Volvo vehicles, and every 2018 Ford and Lincoln vehicle that has stop/start technology, a total of 10 models - that from 2018.
Add Jaguar, Mercedes, Land Rover Range Rover, Several models of Chevy cars and trucks, Cadillac, Acura, Honda (reviews say Honda is among the worst behaved)

This is a source claiming even more results over-all - (initially it was figured at 3%+ fuel savings and 3%+ for emissions reduction)
For non-electric vehicles fuel economy gains from this technology are typically in the range of 3-10 percent, potentially as high as 12 percent. In the United States, idling wastes approximately 14.8 billion liters (3.9 billion U.S. gallons; 3.3 billion Imperial gallons) of gasoline per year.

For some cities, states and counties, it's EMISSIONS and there are anti-idling laws that are growing in scope and number.3% when combined with other actions is a huge deal in some cities. Big difference in breathing or not in some places.

Time for America to start seeing outside of their own garages. There's a world out there - and it doesn't revolve around us. Doesn't matter what you like - it's here to stay and growing in number.
People dislike what they don't understand. Even if it's for a greater good, it will be argued against because of personal dislikes and not with sound logic, but with dislike and hate.

For those open to learning - and engineering, here's something from one of the engineers involved when answering "but won't it wear out my starter" question -

"Automotive engineers don't use 'traditional' starter motors in these situations," he explained. "The starter used for start-stop systems combines several technologies."

(1) The gear ratio from the starter-drive pinion to the flywheel ring gear is optimized to make the starter's motor turn more slowly. This can be done without materially changing the design of the transmission or flywheel at all on existing designs.

Crucially, this reduces starter-motor speed (in RPM), since 90 percent of starter-motor brush wear occurs not during cranking, but during the coast-down after the start has finished. If a higher-torque motor can spin more slowly, its coast-down time is shorter, increasing its longevity.

(2) The composition of the carbon and copper brushes on a start-stop motor differs from its traditional counterparts to increase longevity without accelerating the wear on the commutator.

(3) Rather than rely on oil-impregnated bushings for the rotating assemblies, start-stop starters mostly use needle bearings.

(4) The solenoid on start-stop starters decouples the mechanical action of engaging the drive pinion into the flywheel from the electrical action of stopping and starting the motor.

This allows for a dedicated design to turn power on and off to the motor, optimizing contact design and wear, against contacts that have to be integrated as part of a spring-loaded plunger.

This also reduces the electrical load requires to turn the engine, so that there is enough current available for accessories/lighting to operate during the start event.

(5) Finally, start-stop motors are integrated with other technologies that identify when each cylinder of the engine will reach top-dead center.
That lets the fuel injectors pulse and fire during the middle of a complete rotation of the crank, against having to wait for a complete revolution that lets the first cylinder reach that position to start the fuel-spark timing sequence.
-------------

As a person who works on and has worked on various automotive electric systems for years, starters, alternators, and other fun stuff - he's on-target here. Don't worry about that starter - even before ESS starters were lasting over a lifetime IF the owner wasn't an idiot and failed to maintain the vehicle or insisted "just 2 more seconds, I know it will start" and keeps cranking until it does. Man, people fry things by being impatient (which is likely where some of the hate for ESS comes from - loss of control, impatience - want to be spinning tires before the next guy can move!)

Wow...you are definitely a fan of ESS.
I bet if you take a poll of gladiator owners on this forum the vast majority will agree these sort of ideas to reduce emissions do more harm than good. I have seen several post about the "second battery" going out and leaving people stranded.
I'll take reliability over some tiny improvements in milage any day of the week.
It adds too much complexity and cost to vehicles in my opinion.
No wonder why these trucks are pushing 60k.
Make it reliable and I'll worry about my own gas mileage.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This is correct. I over simplified.

AZ - where businesses close at 2 pm due to the heat, and open again at something like 5 am to take advantage of the cool.

 

[AZCooWhip]

AZ - where businesses close at 2 pm due to the heat, and open again at something like 5 am to take advantage of the cool.

This ....its only 109 today ??

Not to mention the sun comes up mighty early this time of year. Something like 4:30.

Why not.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Wow...you are definitely a fan of ESS.
I bet if you take a poll of gladiator owners on this forum the vast majority will agree these sort of ideas to reduce emissions do more harm than good. I have seen several post about the "second battery" going out and leaving people stranded.
I'll take reliability over some tiny improvements in milage any day of the week.
It adds too much complexity and cost to vehicles in my opinion.
No wonder why these trucks are pushing 60k.
Make it reliable and I'll worry about my own gas mileage.

Not a "fan" but I get it and I don't hate it. We've had 3, maybe 4 Jeeps with it. We've had one set of batteries give problems and the Jeep was going on 3 years old then.
You are polling people who dislike something - of course they'll say that, good grief! That aren't experts or engineers and most of them not even real mechanics. It's like asking what the most patriotic businesses in the US are - you get opinions. Harm? Ok, batteries - Jeep is also rated as one of the companies that hasn't gotten the implementation right - yet. It works flawlessly in many other brands.
Does more harm that good? So far, not a lick of evidence, just guessing and opinions. No meat behind it. Harm? Where? The proof? Forum hate of something? Right.

Polling forum members who hate something just because or perhaps because of impressions or opinions or bad luck is like asking people in a hospital how they feel.

You ignored the points about emissions reductions, apparently - explain to the people of LA how you don't give a damn about their air.

Reliability? Please, laughable - a forum where people gather to discuss problems? How about a nation-wide poll of ALL Jeep owners, not forum members - bet you'll find different answers.
Several posts on a forum where people complain ain't exactly support of a point. |

I'm showing logic and fact - you are only giving opinions based on misconceptions and "I hear that......"

It's not that I love the complexity, it's just that I don't understand the vile hate of something that people really only know what they read on a forum.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

This ....its only 109 today ??

Not to mention the sun comes up mighty early this time of year. Something like 4:30.

Why not.

That "like" doesn't mean I love it you have to deal with the heat or that it's that hot....... not at all. I know how I'd feel if our AC had gone out this week and it's only in the 90s. (until today, something weird happened and it's not 80 yet)

 

[BrianEl]

All he's got to do is look at the cluster display - it will tell what's going on. Don't even need to open the hood. If the battery is low, it will say so on the cluster display.

I noticed my stop/start stopped working, no battery display, didn't think any thing of it other than happy I didn't have to deal with it. Got a leak in in my rear seal, took it to the dealer under warranty for the leak and mentioned my start/stop stopped working a few months ago. He checked the batteries, both were bad. No display no warnings. He said it was a common issue for that. They replaced both batteries, now I have to deal with the start/stop again until I get a Tazer.

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