Ecodiesel power derating as temps rise?

[ShadowsPapa]

The ECU protecting the engine isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I understand that it frustrates people in high altitude and stressful environments.



A snippet from another thread:

" When I was a development engineer at Cummins, I used to run hot box tests at rated power for hundreds of hours on engines with 230F coolant temperatures, which drove the oil temperatures to 280F on dino 15w40. We never worried about the durability. All that my management wanted to know was the exact date that the test would be completed."

Since dino oils have much lower breakdown temperatures than synthetics, 300 degrees on a syn oil is not an issue.

You are wrong, and I have never had an issue with you. I actually respect you. But I'm kind of getting tired of you jumping on every post I make and trying to discredit me.

Everything I posted in this thread is 100% accurate. Period.

And everything I posted is from an engineer - who tests oils and has current information on current oils as of spring 2021.
Oils have changed, tests in 2020 and 2021 show totally different numbers than you refer to.
Not sure where the "dino oils have a much lower breakdown temperature than synthetics" comes from - but it's just not true. Each oil is different - some synthetics break down at 260 and 270 while some conventional oils exceed that. There's no rule because the numbers vary with the oil.

Here's a link so you can see where I'm coming from - real numbers, real tests by an SAE engineer.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

For example -
5W30 Valvoline Full Synthetic Extended Protection, GM dexos1-Gen2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP thermal breakdown was 285 - for THAT synthetic oil.

20W50 Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, conventional - thermal breakdown - 285. The same.

I'm passing along information is all.
Read the numbers - it's been shown that modern oils - there's very little difference and in protection over-all, some synthetics suck while others are superior, same for conventional oils.



Capability ranking at 275*F:

1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 97,955 psi (dropped 15% from its 230* value)

2. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN = 96,323 psi (dropped 9% from its 230* value)
(2% below no. 1 here at 275*)

3. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only = 95,996 psi (dropped 10% from its 230* value)
(2% below no. 1 here at 275*)

4. 5W50 Motorcraft, API SN = 92,545 psi (dropped 11% from its 230* value)
(6% below no. 1 here at 275*)

5. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil = 91,351 psi (dropped ONLY 4% from its 230* value)
(7% below no. 1 here at 275*)

6. 20W50 Castrol GTX, API SN = 85,815 psi (dropped 11% from its 230* value)
(12% below no. 1 here at 275*)

7. 5W20 Castrol Edge w/Titanium, API SN = 84,584 psi (dropped 15% from its 230* value)
(14% below no. 1 here at 275*)

8. 10W30 Joe Gibbs XP3 NASCAR Racing Oil = 80,957 psi (dropped 15% from its 230* value)
(17% below no. 1 here at 275*)

9. 5W30 Castrol GTX, API SN = 80,957 psi (dropped 15% from its 230* value)
(17% below no. 1 here at 275*)
NOTE: This is not a typo here, number 8 and 9 here just happened to have the same size wear scar, thus the same psi value.

10. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, silver bottle = 75,116 psi (dropped 27% from its 230* value)
(23% below no. 1 here at 275*)

11. 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 = 68,768 psi (dropped ONLY 4% from its 230* value)
(30% below no. 1 here at 275*)

12. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR = 66,664 psi (dropped 11% from its 230* value)
(32% below no. 1 here at 275*)

As expected, the capability psi values dropped as the oils got hotter and thinner. But for most of the oils, the drop was not enormous. And the average psi drop for the whole group of 12 oils, was only about 12% from their 230* values.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Obviously WXman and I are getting some differing information from different sources. I'll just leave up what I have, folks can do their own digging from here as it ain't worth tension and friction to keep beating the drums.

On a related note - obviously there's something else going on because the oil temp alone ain't doing it - otherwise anyone with this engine would see it derate if it was simply the oil sump temperature reaching xxx degrees. Gotta be more to it. Short term I'd not be afraid to take the sump temperature up to that on a diesel. My tractors never ran all that hot - but these are different animals in many ways.
IF it was a matter of oil temperature, then anyone with a similar load on a similar grade would reach similar oil temperatures and see the same thing.
Or are they? Doesn't look like it.
Interesting note that there are no formal complaints, nothing on record I can find.

 

[steelponycowboy]

I understand that the temps are in the "normal" operating range but to cut the power increasingly as the oil temp moves above 240 is what people are complaining about. When I get close to or over 260 I can put my foot to the floor all I want and it will not downshift or increase power in any way. In fact, it keeps loosing speed and power the higher the temp gets over 260. I've had it up to 268 already and I think a 4 cyl gasser would have done better. One other thing that is strange, the oil pressure increases as the oil temp increases. I know my 3.6 Wrangler does.

It's very disappointing. Thinking I'll trade it when the 4Xe JT becomes available.

 

[2TH MVR]

Funny. I'm in PHX and I haven't experienced any of this derating in my JTRD. Interestingly my other commuter car with a small turbo derates all the time in the summer. It's freaking hot here. Of course cars are going to get hot. So much negativity re:. The diesel .

 

[ShadowsPapa]

That's because not all of these do that. Those that do - it's been pretty sad, even to the point of shutting down along the road. Just because one doesn't do it doesn't mean others aren't having legit troubles. Like the steering issues - not all JTs had the same problems and of those that did, some had it worse.
You didn't mention if you were towing or not........

 

[steelponycowboy]

I should clarify that I was not towing when my gauges showed what the did in the picture above. 4 mile 6% grade on NB 87 from Sunflower AZ to the top where you turn to go to the fire tower on Mt Ord. I did not have this issue when new but now that I've put 16k miles on it since April it has been getting more issues and getting worse

 

[Glad_he_ate]

Has anyone contemplated drilling and taping the pan. Add cooler and pump underneath to simply draw heat from the pan ?? Could be done fairly easily id think? 12v pump on a toggle no filter needed just hot oil out to aux cooler and cooled oil back Into the hot pan. ?
No issues on my jt.

 

[steelponycowboy]

I'll be presenting my JTRD to Bulletproof Diesel in Mesa, AZ this week for them to take a look at. I'll keep you posted of any recommendations or comments that they have.

Just keep in mind that some of the modifications that have been suggested here could void your warranty.

I am thinking that a professionally done modification to keep temperatures down (larger aluminum radiator (Mishimoto? or a remote oil cooling set up from a reputable manufacturer using quality parts), not a junk yard solution by a shade tree mechanic, would keep your warranty valid.

Remember that auto manufactures biggest cost is warranty and ALL of them are looking for reasons to void or not honor your warranty due to modifications done to the vehicle. It was touch and go for me on my Wrangler because I had a Pedal Commander installed and my transmission failed at 50K miles. They didn't have an issue with the Mishimoto radiator of the B&M 16,000lb transmission cooler installed in front of the Mishimoto.

 

[CreepyJeepy]

Ok, I just pulled a 3400lb load up a 7% grade for 7 miles i70 in Colorado.

I had my Bluetooth module capturing all data points.

The issue is Extended time high EGTs. This little 3.0 is a hot engine…..

Bigger turbo
Intake
Water/meth.

Are all things on my mind..

 

[2kXJ]

New here. Starting my research for a new truck purchase next year. Really like the JT eco on paper, but not after reading this entire thread. I’m in SoAz so I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread for sure.

Wife has a 2017 escape 2.0 ecoboost, 75k miles. Many trips through the southwest in 100+ temps and long grades at speed limit or above, not a single issue.

So we’re traveling similar routes and temps as Steelpony. It’s simply unbelievable that he’s driving, not towing, in these conditions and having issues. What a joke.

I drive a 2000 XJ and I couldn’t imagine how pissed I’d be if I finally treated myself to a new 40-50k truck and it goes into limp mode in normal southwestern USA driving conditions. Simply unacceptable.

I hope a permanent solution is figured out for those with the issues and you end up with the truck that was advertised. SMH

 

[FutureOdin]

If you're derating without towing in extreme conditions, you need to see the dealer. It's not a design flaw, I would bet you have something wrong with your vehicle.

As far as those that derate while towing, at high elevations, at high temp, at high speeds (65+mph) etc. that seems to be expected given the SAE J2807 standard, no?

 

[CreepyJeepy]

I understand that the temps are in the "normal" operating range but to cut the power increasingly as the oil temp moves above 240 is what people are complaining about. When I get close to or over 260 I can put my foot to the floor all I want and it will not downshift or increase power in any way. In fact, it keeps loosing speed and power the higher the temp gets over 260. I've had it up to 268 already and I think a 4 cyl gasser would have done better. One other thing that is strange, the oil pressure increases as the oil temp increases. I know my 3.6 Wrangler does.

It's very disappointing. Thinking I'll trade it when the 4Xe JT becomes available.

You are having an issue very similar to me (and most of us), but in my case it's with a trailer.

FYI these gauges only tell a little bit of the story.... The other more important part is EGT and IATs...

The EcoDiesel 3.0 can hit nearly 1600F EGT when towing a load (that's really high) Aluminum can start to melt at 1250F.

I am starting to wonder about oil pressure being high when temps rise. The new Ecodiesel 3.0 has improved oil jets that spray under the pistons. As temp's rise to prevent the pistons from melting, i bet pressure increases can be controlled programmatically to help cool the pistons, to prevent engine failure.

I am really thinking our solution is not all that complicated, and I am trying to get parts sorted to build one.

1. AEM intake to improve Airflow to the engine.
2. Water/Meth cooler that can be activated while towing, or getting hot. The kit I want to construct would be bolt on, and not alter the intake in any way, and use the windshield washer fluid tank.

...... The real solution would be a delete kit. but good luck on that... Plus tree huggers will knife your soul, and steal your children.

With those two you would reduce EGT's and prolong the time before derate, as well as pick up fuel milage and extra HP / Torque.

 

[foo.c]

You are having an issue very similar to me (and most of us), but in my case it's with a trailer.

FYI these gauges only tell a little bit of the story.... The other more important part is EGT and IATs...

The EcoDiesel 3.0 can hit nearly 1600F EGT when towing a load (that's really high) Aluminum can start to melt at 1250F.

I am starting to wonder about oil pressure being high when temps rise. The new Ecodiesel 3.0 has improved oil jets that spray under the pistons. As temp's rise to prevent the pistons from melting, i bet pressure increases can be controlled programmatically to help cool the pistons, to prevent engine failure.

I am really thinking our solution is not all that complicated, and I am trying to get parts sorted to build one.

1. AEM intake to improve Airflow to the engine.
2. Water/Meth cooler that can be activated while towing, or getting hot. The kit I want to construct would be bolt on, and not alter the intake in any way, and use the windshield washer fluid tank.

...... The real solution would be a delete kit. but good luck on that... Plus tree huggers will knife your soul, and steal your children.

With those two you would reduce EGT's and prolong the time before derate, as well as pick up fuel milage and extra HP / Torque.

Re: 1. Anything before the turbo won't do much of anything to lower temps.

 

[CreepyJeepy]

Re: 1. Anything before the turbo won't do much of anything to lower temps.

If the stock airbox is a restriction.... (which I think it is due to the inlet), but I haven't tested by driving with the hood off, that actually might be a good idea..... hmmmm)

Adding additional air will absolutely reduce EGT's.

The water/meth cooler injected post intercooler, not pre turbo. Will also reduce EGT, likely much more than an intake.

 

[foo.c]

If the stock airbox is a restriction.... (which I think it is due to the inlet), but I haven't tested by driving with the hood off, that actually might be a good idea..... hmmmm)

Adding additional air will absolutely reduce EGT's.

The water/meth cooler injected post intercooler, not pre turbo. Will also reduce EGT, likely much more than an intake.

A cold air intake won't really change the temperature of the intake charge after the turbo. I think it might allow a tiny bit more pressure, but it will still be hot.

I agree on the second part.

You might try a water mist in front of the intercooler. I can't see them voiding your warranty over that and it will help.

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