Are new cars too complex to service?

[seven30]

Have we hit the complexity/serviceability limit?

I started wondering about this after reading about some diagnostic failures resulting in expensive repeated attempts to fix a problem.

Finding and developing the right talent to service these complex systems takes time and costs money.
Do dealers really have the commitment to do this long term?

If someone decides to make this a career would they regret it? Its not like an electrician or AC tech who can be fairly certain their training will pay off 20-30 years down the road.

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[Deleted member 47279]

The programming side will only get more and more complex, yet its still needs that last mile. after checking out the binaries for these trucks im certain i could figure it out, but its getting more and more complicated unless you RE the code or use the factory software interface. ive made surface changes, but now im getting curious as to actually understanding whats happening within. to answer your question, we are a throw away society, and most new cars are getting wrecked due to complexly and cost to repair, yet someone has to be around to fix some stuff. i forsee a solid career for anyone thinking of becoming a tech, but keep in mind, the training will be way harder and probably have more CPEs like a tech career. more complex=higher wages hence i dont see this being too blue collar in the future.

 

[JTBurns]

Yep, I agree. I think you're gonna need a degree in computer engineering, or just be someone who is really into coding to work on the vehicles in the future. I'm sure there will still be plenty of mechanical thinks that need swapped out from time to time but I'm sure those will be low paying wages comparitvely.

 

[Rahkmalla]

With tesla repair-totaling themselves at the first battery replacement, EVs are going to really impact the longevity of the average car if they don't start building them in a way where battery replacements aren't catastrophic events for owners. Cars not lasting as long means less goes wrong before complete failure. Means less techs needed. Means less diagnostics performed and more parts replacement. Shop hourlies will keep rising astronomically while pay rates for techs will barely rise. Not a career I'd want to get into now. At least not at the dealership or local garage level. Go get an education and get a job for Ford or Tesla figuring out to repair salvage yard EVs on the cheap for resale. "Reconditioned" cars are on the horizon, and that will probably pay well.

 

[seven30]

Ha I found RE of the old bosch ECU assembler a huge challenge. The new stuff is massive compared to that. I dont even know what cpu is used.

 

[Deleted member 47279]

Bosch EDC17C69 for the diesel.

 

[dcmdon]

In short, the answer is yes.

Especially considering the level of professionalism of the average Jeep service department and Jeep technician.

One thing Wranglers and Gladiators have in their favor is that anything chassis related is easy to work on compared to most vehicles.

Also, the engine bay is relatively roomy compared to most vehicles.

Like I've said a dozen times here, we should blame the flat rate pay system that dealers use. Techs are not paid to diagnose. They are paid to change parts. So that's what they do.

If you incent an employee to behave a certain way, even the most professional tech will eventually give in.

As a pilot and a member of the homebuilt aircraft community for decades, I can tell you that the level of professionalism between even the most junior A&P (aircraft) mechanic and an auto tech is night and day.

A&Ps get paid for their time. If there is a problem they will methodically diagnose the problem and come up with the best solution taking into account cost and flight safety. The culture in the A&P community is one of safety, thoroughness, and professionalism.

Auto techs don't go through their work and confirm everything is working right because they aren't paid to do that. A&Ps are.

Let me give you an example of a typical car dealer experience I had. A few years ago I had a VW Passat. My cruise control wasn't working so I went to the dealer that was literally 5 minutes away. The service writer quoted me $350 for a cruise control module plus about 1.5 hours to change it and program the car.

I asked him if they would refund my money if the swap didn't fix the problem. His answer was no.

I had been holding off on spending the money for the paid version of a VAG-Com VW specific scan tool for a while. So I took that opportunity to download the paid version and buy a OBD2 dongle.

I scanned the car and came up with a DTC something like "Intermittent brake light switch failure".

I thought to myself that if I was writing the software for the car's cruise control, I'd disable it if I wasn't getting good data from the part that is a necessary piece of safety equipment needed to turn off the cruise when the brakes are pressed.

So I called the dealer and found that a brake light switch was $28 and in stock. I went down there and got the switch and spent 45 minutes miserable on my back under the dash and low and behold it fixed the problem.

I am not a terribly good mechanic. All I did was take a sincere interest in solving the problem and use my brain.

The VW tech who would have changed my cruise control module was most likely far more knowledgeable than I was but he would have just changed the CCM.

But lets think of it the other way. If it was HIS car with the problem, do you think he would have blindly changed the CCM?? Of course not. He'd scan the entire care looking for DTCs that might cause the cruise to not function.

So this tech behaves like a good mechanic when working on his own car, or doing side work, and like a neanderthal parts changer when he's at the dealer. Why? Because the flat rate pay system takes money out of his pocket when he tries to do the right thing.

/rant

 

[Deleted member 47279]

In short, the answer is yes.

Especially considering the level of professionalism of the average Jeep service department and Jeep technician.

One thing Wranglers and Mojave's have in their favor is that anything chassis related is easy to work on compared to most vehicles.

Also, the engine bay is relatively roomy compared to most vehicles.

Like I've said a dozen times here, we should blame the flat rate pay system that dealers use. Techs are not paid to diagnose. They are paid to change parts. So that's what they do.

If you incent an employee to behave a certain way, even the most professional tech will eventually give in.

As a pilot and a member of the homebuilt aircraft community for decades, I can tell you that the level of professionalism between even the most junior A&P (aircraft) mechanic and an auto tech is night and day.

A&Ps get paid for their time. If there is a problem they will methodically diagnose the problem and come up with the best solution taking into account cost and flight safety. The culture in the A&P community is one of safety, thoroughness, and professionalism.

Auto techs don't go through their work and confirm everything is working right because they aren't paid to do that. A&Ps are.

Let me give you an example of a typical car dealer experience I had. A few years ago I had a VW Passat. My cruise control wasn't working so I went to the dealer that was literally 5 minutes away. The service writer quoted me $350 for a cruise control module plus about 1.5 hours to change it and program the car.

I asked him if they would refund my money if the swap didn't fix the problem. His answer was no.

I had been holding off on spending the money for the paid version of a VAG-Com VW specific scan tool for a while. So I took that opportunity to download the paid version and buy a OBD2 dongle.

I scanned the car and came up with a DTC something like "Intermittent brake light switch failure".

I thought to myself that if I was writing the software for the car's cruise control, I'd disable it if I wasn't getting good data from the part that is a necessary piece of safety equipment needed to turn off the cruise when the brakes are pressed.

So I called the dealer and found that a brake light switch was $28 and in stock. I went down there and got the switch and spent 45 minutes miserable on my back under the dash and low and behold it fixed the problem.

I am not a terribly good mechanic. All I did was take a sincere interest in solving the problem and use my brain.

The VW tech who would have changed my cruise control module was most likely far more knowledgeable than I was but he would have just changed the CCM.

But lets think of it the other way. If it was HIS car with the problem, do you think he would have blindly changed the CCM?? Of course not. He'd scan the entire care looking for DTCs that might cause the cruise to not function.

So this tech behaves like a good mechanic when working on his own car, or doing side work, and like a neanderthal parts changer when he's at the dealer. Why? Because the flat rate pay system takes money out of his pocket when he tries to do the right thing.

/rant

100%... i just got my last jeep wave oil change. so i look at my engine bay and my oil cap is cross threaded, and the oil plug is leaking. tells me, no attention to detail, and probably just put the plug in quickly to get me out. DGAF about my jeep. its the last time i will ever trust a stealership.

 

[WhyNotJeep]

I change my own oil and have never had an issue due to it. Do I really want to use the free ones so the dealer can screw up things I have to pay for?? 3 free oil changes = 3 chances to screw up something to fix later.

 

[Deleted member 47279]

I change my own oil and have never had an issue due to it. Do I really want to use the free ones so the dealer can screw up things I have to pay for?? 3 free oil changes = 3 chances to screw up something to fix later.

i hate that i lied to myself and said, how could they fuck up an oil change? lol

 

[berb]

My youngest son is graduating from high school and completed the automotive program. There were many things that turned him off from going into the profession.

1st there is a major tech shortage, so if you're a tech and worth a darn you're jumping to the highest bidder or best situation, which means good techs are spread thin.

2nd because there is a tech shortage the techs are not getting the training like they used too because the dealerships cannot afford to not have the tech in their shop to go get trained. So, it's on the job training learning from each other rather than learning from the company that created and knows the car the best.

3rd the pay structure sucks. Most dealerships pay by the job and each job has a set price, so if you run into a problem and it takes longer you do not get extra money. AND it's competitive because this structure does not encourage the more experienced tech to train the less experienced because the person you train can and may eventually take jobs from you thus lowering your income.

So, because of the pay structure and the time frame of when training would occur my son decided to join a company that pays an hourly wage for all techs and he will be working on all kinds of equipment such as gas engines, diesel engines, hydraulics and anything that comes in their shop. Training is a priority and since no one is competing for jobs to better their pay, everyone works together and helps each other out.

I have never worked in the industry, but I thought you guys would be interested in what a young person experience was, who thought about getting into the profession and then went a different direction because of how it was presented to him.

Again this was our personal experience and nothing more.

 

[Deleted member 47279]

My youngest son is graduating from high school and completed the automotive program. There were many things that turned him off from going into the profession.

1st there is a major tech shortage, so if you're a tech and worth a darn you're jumping to the highest bidder or best situation, which means good techs are spread thin.

2nd because there is a tech shortage the techs are not getting the training like they used too because the dealerships cannot afford to not have the tech in their shop to go get trained. So, it's on the job training learning from each other rather than learning from the company that created and knows the car the best.

3rd the pay structure sucks. Most dealerships pay by the job and each job has a set price, so if you run into a problem and it takes longer you do not get extra money. AND it's competitive because this structure does not encourage the more experienced tech to train the less experienced because the person you train can and may eventually take jobs from you thus lowering your income.

So, because of the pay structure and the time frame of when training would occur my son decided to join a company that pays an hourly wage for all techs and he will be working on all kinds of equipment such as gas engines, diesel engines, hydraulics and anything that comes in their shop. Training is a priority and since no one is competing for jobs to better their pay, everyone works together and helps each other out.

I have never worked in the industry, but I thought you guys would be interested in what a young person experience was, who thought about getting into the profession and then went a different direction because of how it was presented to him.

Again this was our personal experience and nothing more.

wow! totally makes sense! dog eat dog for no reason. im glad your son found something better. ive been wrenching forever, but never for money. I dont think i would do well in that profession. today i train tons of younger folks for nothing and would never want to change that.

 

[berb]

wow! totally makes sense! dog eat dog for no reason. im glad your son found something better. ive been wrenching forever, but never for money. I dont think i would do well in that profession. today i train tons of younger folks for nothing and would never want to change that.

Well, the group he's in with seem genuine, only time will tell. Hopefully, he's with people like you that will take him under their wing and turn him into a good tech.

 

[Deleted member 47279]

Well, the group he's in with seem genuine, only time will tell. Hopefully, he's with people like you that will take him under their wing and turn him into a good tech.

i came up in a time where my profession was new an no real old timers yet. sadly with time things will change i bet.

 

[dcmdon]

3rd the pay structure sucks. Most dealerships pay by the job and each job has a set price, so if you run into a problem and it takes longer you do not get extra money.

The flat rate system pays a set number of hours. If you "beat book time", then you make out. If you take longer than book, you aren't paid for that time.

Some dealers will charge back a tech if the problem comes back. That is what we did. I dont' know enough about how things are done now to know if this still happens or if it comes from the manufacturer or the dealer.

One other thing. Book time and hourly rate are less when its warranty work.

So to fix your widget "customer pay" may be 2.5 hours at $135/hr.

If Jeep is paying it as a warranty repair, it may only pay 1.5 hours at $80/hr.

AND it's competitive because this structure does not encourage the more experienced tech to train the less experienced because the person you train can and may eventually take jobs from you thus lowering your income.

Its less about the competitive aspect why seasoned techs don't want to mentor anyone. Its because they DON'T GET PAID to mentor. Back to what I have been saying all along. Techs do what is in their own best interest.

If a tech is getting paid flat rate on a job and spends 15 minutes helping the new guy, he just pissed away .25 hours.

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