Why not buy a Centerforce dual friction clutch?

[JT1]

Dual-mass is a design but the details vary. For example, if you took a heavy centerforce flywheel and added the secondary flywheel it would still have the advantage of the centerforce inertia. The mass of the primary and secondary flywheels and the coupling between them are engineering design points for some objective. I asked myself why would the primary flywheel be low inertia and it seems one good reason is to assist stop/start. But the inertia to carry over between cylinder firings at low rpm is just marginal with the stock design.
A dual-mass for a buzzy four makes sense but it kind of superfluous with a V6.

To add to this further, I find I need the minimim rpm to prevent stalling higher than the conventional design in my old Comanche truck. There is only one good reason for that: Flywheel intertia.

"The primary flywheel side is bolted to the crankshaft. the secondary flywheel side serves as the driving member to the clutch disks. Internal springs between the flywheels are used to dampen energy. The dual mass flywheel is serviced as an assembly only and should never be taken apart."

I agree with you on the stalling.. things I could idle over in a TJ stall this thing even if I'm feathering the throttle. Also explains why it feels like you are stretching a rubber band when you take off. In the TJ as soon as you hit the release point of the clutch, you could hop off the pedal quickly and feed it gas. With the dual mass, it feels like there are 2 events happening sequentially, and the aggressiveness of the launch changes the timing of the second event.

Could southbend add stiffer springs to the flywheel to minimize the damping? That might help with the stalling also as the net effect would be to make the low speed flywheel heavier.

Sponsored

 

[NC_Overland]

good evening all
what a project. i started on Sunday and got to the point where i had to stop because i was getting frustrated with removing parts. i stopped at the transmission and planned on removing the transmission on Monday. the nice part was the parts from Allmoparparts.com were to be delivered today (Monday). when you look at the pictures, i want to make a statement that i have owned vehicles with a standard transmission since i started driving in 1978 in a 1970 ford falcon.

i was shocked by what i saw when i removed the clutch assembly from the flywheel and even the flywheel was just as bad as the clutch assembly. at the end of the day today, i have the clutch assembly installed as well as the transmission installed. on Wednesday i will install the transfer case and the shift cables.

as to the old parts, the reason jeep calls the flywheel a dual mass flywheel is because the flywheel has attached to it a clutch basket the moves in a rotational pattern. in other words, the clutch basket moves rotationally left and right and as it does, it locks tighter to the flywheel.

now on to the clutch assembly. it does have two clutch disks and three steel plates. in the pressure plate assembly there are two steel plates and one disk. the third plate is attached to the clutch basket that is attached to the flywheel. the primary clutch disk is attached to the secondary clutch disk in the pressure plate thru the use of a gear system. this allows the two clutch disks to work together with a steel plate between them. to keep the pressure on the secondary clutch disk, the steel plate, that goes between the two clutch disks, is attached to the pressure plate by 3 large rivets that allow the plate to move inward but not out. these three rivets have two steel bands that i believe keep tension on the disk in order to bring pressure on that disk for return once the clutch has been released. it also has the three small rivets that keep the plate in place as well. i am not sure what their job is at this time.

a few observations of what the damage is. one major observation is this clutch got very hot in a short period. the clutch disks where going to have to be replaced within 5000 miles based on how close the clutch material is down to thew rivets. on the two steel plates the secondary disk goes between, the outer edge of both plates are grooved in two places if you look closely, you can see the grooved areas. in digging further, the secondary disk shows wear at the outer edge which corresponds with the grooved areas on the two steel disks.

at this point i am now open to all of the torment and harassment about me riding the clutch which i do not do.

If you want to have any pictures done close up, please let me know and i will take them and upload them to this discussion.

I wasn’t going to say you rode the clutch, but those hot spots do look like you dumped the clutch to have some fun a few times. Haha

 

[NachoRuby]

I agree with you on the stalling.. things I could idle over in a TJ stall this thing even if I'm feathering the throttle. Also explains why it feels like you are stretching a rubber band when you take off. In the TJ as soon as you hit the release point of the clutch, you could hop off the pedal quickly and feed it gas. With the dual mass, it feels like there are 2 events happening sequentially, and the aggressiveness of the launch changes the timing of the second event.

Could southbend add stiffer springs to the flywheel to minimize the damping? That might help with the stalling also as the net effect would be to make the low speed flywheel heavier.

I wonder if there is a clutch delay valve, like on mkvii VWs? It's a valve whose sole purpose is to keep you from releasing the clutch quickly. Supposedly to save the drivetrain from shock. It slows down the hydraulic fluid. Combined with the dmf, folks would complain about the rubber band effect there too. That would do it, and would also explain why I'm not having trouble taking off. My last two cars had all of this crap too, so I've already been acclimated to it, I guess. Dual mass flywheel + clutch delay valve + rev hang.

Google mkvii VW clutch delay valve. Sounds a lot like what you guys are noticing.

https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6562

 

[JTDay]

One of my last vehicles, a 99 us-spec M3, had the dual mass flywheel and a clutch delay valve. No problems with getting off the clutch and onto the gas.

My other two vehicles with manuals had the dual mass flywheels without the clutch delay valve and also no problems engaging the clutch and getting on the gas.

The JT and JL with manuals are just funky and seem to be stall happy with the 3.73 gears. My wife also stalled my JT the first time she drove it and has driven manuals her whole life like me. It appears the aftermarket clutch options might fix that for those of us who will inevitably wear the clutch out prematurely because we have to rev it to 1500rpm on hills to get going. The JT clutch setup seems like a solution to a problem versus an innovation.

 

[NachoRuby]

@Padre , You've got the south bend rebuilt OE clutch. Can you share your experience? Do you know exactly what was revised on yours?

 

[seven30]

Camaros and CTSs (with the v6) have dual mass flywheels, circa 2013. No start stop there. So did the last generation of v6 mustangs, with no start stop.

Right I assume that was purely NVH. But Ill bet they didn't have a stall issue either because the primary flywheel had more inertia than the JT flywheel. Why would FCA install a low inertia primary flywheel? I'm thinking the only benefit would be increased starter life. Probably the same starter as the auto which was designed for a specific inertia at engagement time.

 

[Padre]

@Padre , You've got the south bend rebuilt OE clutch. Can you share your experience? Do you know exactly what was revised on yours?

Not really sure but I can find out. All in know is what he told me is that the stock on is hollow causing it to overheat and transfer that heat. He said they beef it up and enclose it. obviously I don't know what i am talking about. But I know this. I have to back up a utility trailer about once a week on a twisty grassy drive and my stock clutch would over heat. This one has not done it since I have had it done. Did you see the pics?

 

[seven30]

The Southbend website says their center/floater is solid suggesting stock one is hollow.

I wonder exactly how the flywheel and clutch basket are connected for the dual-mass function.

 

[bryanklay]

The Southbend website says their center/floater is solid suggesting stock one is hollow.

I wonder exactly how the flywheel and clutch basket are connected for the dual-mass function.

based on what i have seen, the flywheel and clutch basket are connected by cold rivets.

 

[Choatecav]

I agree that the soft clutch is the weak link in the MT so I watched all of Brian's excellent videos on this and was so juiced on the Centerforce clutch that I was locked and loaded to get one. I even placed the order with Quadratech last November but they were backordered and not expected until January. As I considered sources to help me install it, I thought I would call the local dealership to see if they could help me with it. The service manager said that "No, we cannot install anything that is not factory made and OEM in nature." I thanked him and then he said that while it was my decision as to what I do with my Jeep but he wanted me to know that installation of this clutch would void any remaining warranties on that portion of the Jeep. Considering this and the other battles that come up with manufacturer warranties, I decided to cancel my order. I still plan on getting one after the warranties expire.

 

[Bbannongmu]

I agree that the soft clutch is the weak link in the MT so I watched all of Brian's excellent videos on this and was so juiced on the Centerforce clutch that I was locked and loaded to get one. I even placed the order with Quadratech last November but they were backordered and not expected until January. As I considered sources to help me install it, I thought I would call the local dealership to see if they could help me with it. The service manager said that "No, we cannot install anything that is not factory made and OEM in nature." I thanked him and then he said that while it was my decision as to what I do with my Jeep but he wanted me to know that installation of this clutch would void any remaining warranties on that portion of the Jeep. Considering this and the other battles that come up with manufacturer warranties, I decided to cancel my order. I still plan on getting one after the warranties expire.

Remember that the factory warranty is only 12k miles and 12 months on the clutch assembly. I’m guessing supply chain issues with Centerforce? Hopefully they can get these out soon !

 

[Frank...]

Quadratec had the delivery date set at February 15th for those of us who ordered. Now we are just told that it’s out of stock with no new date...

 

[seven30]

Not really sure but I can find out. All in know is what he told me is that the stock on is hollow causing it to overheat and transfer that heat. He said they beef it up and enclose it. obviously I don't know what i am talking about. But I know this. I have to back up a utility trailer about once a week on a twisty grassy drive and my stock clutch would over heat. This one has not done it since I have had it done. Did you see the pics?

On the Southbend website they mention their center/floater disk solid suggesting the stock one is hollow.

 

[NachoRuby]

On the Southbend website they mention their center/floater disk solid suggesting the stock one is hollow.

Not sure if you saw them, but here's a link to the pics of the South Bend clutch. They rebuilt his stock clutch somehow. Too bad centerforce or south bend aren't sponsors here, so we could engage on the forums. As I said, I don't mind the stock clutch, but I don't have a trailer to back up like he does. However, I would like something with a bit more of a positive feel.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/clutch-overheat.54079/post-895856

 

[seven30]

Thanks I was looking for that. Good shot of the floater plate differences.

Sponsored