Delete push button start, go back to keyed ignition? The rfid brick has to go...

[AggieJeep]

So there is a ton of stuff online about the downsides to push button/keyless ignitions. From the inconveniences people have with misplacing fob or driving away from it only to cab back to it later when they can't restart vehicle, to a bunch of deaths forgetting to push button to stop, car not in park etc., to carbon monoxide poisoning from quiet cars still running in garage or hybrids that came in on electric and left on so the engine starts up after going inside house to one where emergency response personnel have to try and find the fob at accident scenes so they can ensure vehicles are shut down for a variety of safety reasons etc. And...i'm probably missing more of the downsides to this 'wonderful technology'.

So what's the downside to a keyed ignition again? Oh, the driver has to have accountability for the keys to operate that vehicle at all times, the vehicle cannot be operated otherwise. That's a bummer, it's not like a 4000-8000 lb machine you require testing and permission from government to operate due to the multitude of obvious risks to life and safety to the general public. You might have to dig your keys out of your pack after a hike or dig for them in your purse? What the absolute f....

The aftermarket will likely find this gap in availability as the googles on this show a lot more than just the odd person thinks these are a bad idea. Every forum related to cars like this has multiple threads on the subject.

Mopar, you read these forums? Push button start delete option please, i'll be first in line.

You should put up a Poll to gauge the breadth of dissatisfaction regarding the fob. Also, be specific as to whether you want to determine acceptance for the fob and all its functions or just the ignition.
I think your safety concerns are not fully applicable. The auto-park feature addresses the driver exiting the vehicle when the trans isn’t in Park. I don’t believe the fob is needed for shut off. I think I’ve done this before when testing the range on the fob. I’m too lazy to go out in the cold rain right now to validate. Remote start has been around for decades so I would not cast a wide “unsafe’ characterization. Clearly, any system can have an issue. I’ve seen plenty of incidents myself where drivers did not properly work the legacy key during start-up and parking. Peanut butter has killed children and likely will kill more but “they” still make it due to the limited number of possible deaths and the huge population that can eat it and survive, even thrive on it.

A Poll on this forum isn’t truly scientific but is a step removed from being one person’s crazy talk or a few anecdotal tidbits from The google or The Facebook or whatever generic Interwebs thingy Let FCA and the aftermarket see the interest level from this group of users.

P.S. And no, I’m not saying you are crazy-talking nor am I insensitive to children’s with nut allergies. It simply fits the point I was making regarding acceptable risk.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Where there is fact involved - like the death of Chekov actor, that's been addressed - it's called auto-park and is in all JTs. Get out with it not in park and it engages park.
Unless you see it in a headline from a valid news paper, it's likely not very likely to be fact -like the so-called razor blades in the halloween candy bit - no true cases have ever been found. Law enforcement has been trying to find the source of that for decades and can't find a single hospital or news paper with a real story.
I know people do stupid things - so I know accidents and Darwin-award worthy things are going to happen - but to blame the technology for human behavior.... eh,

Did you know that people get out of their vehicle to get mail, do other things, and don't put it in park or forget to set the brake on a stick? Happens, I've seen it personally. I worked in a shop where we had a vehicle brought in - customer pulled up to get their mail, couldn't reach, so got out of the car - oops, running, in DRIVE.
So that's not an argument either direction then - because silly people do silly things like getting out and not putting it in PARK or setting the brake. It happened before the first engineer thought about a fob and push button. It's not a new problem at all.

Gee, no one misplaces their key? It happens as often as misplacing a fob. Just ask me.
But because I don't have to take the fob out of my pocket when starting it, I never lose it.
I have adapted nicely.
Losing or misplacing a fob is not an argument against push button start because people have been forgetting or misplacing keys, or getting out of the car and DROPPING their keys on the ground for years. I've found keys on the ground - in fact every once in a while our agency secretary would send an email out "found, set of keys, has Ford (or Chevy, or whatever) key on ring" because people got out, had key in their hand, missed a pocket or purse or simply fumbled or dropped it. FOB and push button start? Why would you ever drop it since you never have to take it out of your purse, pocket, coat pocket, whatever. Keys are more likely to get lost - I've found a lot of keys on the ground, never a fob.

Accidents - well, my father was killed when a guy fell asleep and crossed the highway and hit him square at about 59 mph - funny thing, keys weren't in the ignition. In fact some things weren't found. Oh, his Jeep fob was in his pocket - the Jeep was safe at home in the garage.
Leave your vehicle running with key in ignition - I can take off with it. Leave it running with FOB in your pocket when you run in for that beer, I can't go anywhere with it.
You could go back and forth like this for hours - you simply don't like it, it irritates you - and you are among the very few.
It's the way things are - either move along with it, or not. You aren't going to get them to go backwards now.
You won't convince people these are evil. Every forum? Funny thing, I've been involved in multiple forums and this is the first I've seen anyone complain.
It's a losing battle. Doesn't matter how long or loud, you won't get them to go back and you won't get anyone to produce some sort of retro-fit because the demand simply isn't there. My wife and I both LOVE the push-button start. She HATED having to use a key for the Chevy I had - always fumbling having to remember to take the key out, make sure the key is out before you lock it, drop the key, whatever. But with a fob - put it in your pocket and LEAVE IT THERE.
Can't lose it. And if you have it on you at all times like you should - then where's the issue with trying to find it in case of accident?
Just playing devil's advocate here - you don't have that strong a case, really. If you did, you could prove it with a poll - as long as it's asked honestly and not slanted in the asking.

 

[rvillano8188]

So there is a ton of stuff online about the downsides to push button/keyless ignitions. From the inconveniences people have with misplacing fob or driving away from it only to cab back to it later when they can't restart vehicle, to a bunch of deaths forgetting to push button to stop, car not in park etc., to carbon monoxide poisoning from quiet cars still running in garage or hybrids that came in on electric and left on so the engine starts up after going inside house to one where emergency response personnel have to try and find the fob at accident scenes so they can ensure vehicles are shut down for a variety of safety reasons etc. And...i'm probably missing more of the downsides to this 'wonderful technology'.

So what's the downside to a keyed ignition again? Oh, the driver has to have accountability for the keys to operate that vehicle at all times, the vehicle cannot be operated otherwise. That's a bummer, it's not like a 4000-8000 lb machine you require testing and permission from government to operate due to the multitude of obvious risks to life and safety to the general public. You might have to dig your keys out of your pack after a hike or dig for them in your purse? What the absolute f....

The aftermarket will likely find this gap in availability as the googles on this show a lot more than just the odd person thinks these are a bad idea. Every forum related to cars like this has multiple threads on the subject.

Mopar, you read these forums? Push button start delete option please, i'll be first in line.

I tend to doubt the aftermarket will put in the money and effort to delete something that isn't necessarily a "problem" that needs a solution. The AJT design fob is much lighter and a bit smaller if you're looking for a fix. You keep searching the internet and you'll find a downside to pretty much anything.
As for misplacing the fob, wouldn't you have the same issue with misplacing your keys? If I drop my fob, I notice it much more quickly than dropping keys which were much lighter. It's not a necessity, it's a convenience to not have to reach into my pocket to start my vehicle (and it's less strain on a starter for those people who had 500 keys on their key ring)
As for deaths, I'm not sure whether having a key vs a fob would help fix stupid people. Stupid is gonna stupid.
Fobs also have nothing to do with quieter cars at all...

I just don't see an absolute downside where the market would produce something like this. Key Ignitions will go the way of the DVD,VCR, 8 Track, Cassette, etc. it will no longer be or necessary, and in a world where we are ever evolving technologically, how would it make sense to produce this?

As far as a solution goes, AJT seems like the way to go to partially help you out. Along with probably voiding your warranty, it seems like a bad idea to start replacing starter components for something that isn't that huge a deal.

 

[Jt-wrx]

i'm right, you're wrong

ok, mostly kidding

i hope i can come back and post a link to the rfid delete kit one day

i'll prolly order that smaller fob to partially get by as one says, i never lose my keys or wallet, or leave a door unlocked, or a garage door open, by keeping it simple and consistent makes that much easier, vehicles...having an unattached movable key connected by thin air?...i don't get it, that flies in the face of common sense and safety imo, the ownership of what it takes to operate a 2 ton machine marginalized one tiny step at a time, pretty soon we won't have to know how to drive the vehicle either, won't even need a drivers license, humans seem to be on a quest to make passing through narrow arteries through our world in 2 ton machines a no brainer in any capacity, just buy your autonomous car plug in your destination and have a nap on the way, i guess we'd rather do other things than drive? it's amazing how detached we want to get, one tiny step to autonomous driving starts with the rfid push button start but we are masters at fixing things we shouldn't fix, as they weren't broke, we often come up with the correct solutions early on, it's later we decide to mess with a good thing

 

[BruteForce]

Well, one thing is for certain. Wireless & remote start have created an entire new industry of vehicle thefts. Keyfob signal interception using a laptop is a relatively new thing and vehicles being stolen so quietly via laptop and wireless keyfob signal intercept is making car theft super simple.

 

[Mr._Bill]

You can find almost anything on the internet to back whatever position you take up. There's no regulation, or verification for fact.

I like the FOB, but dislike the cost to replace them. It is one less thing to worry about, since it only comes out of the pocket to unlock the gas cap.

FOB's are not going away, and keyed ignitions will become more rare. If the size of the FOB is an issue, pick a vehicle with a smaller FOB.

Eventually, the car will be smarter than the driver, and people will be bitching about the dealer process to mate the car to their fingerprints, and cussing because they can't remember the answers to the secret questions to bypass the eye scanner.

 

[Mr._Bill]

Well, one thing is for certain. Wireless & remote start have created an entire new industry of vehicle thefts. Keyfob signal interception using a laptop is a relatively new thing and vehicles being stolen so quietly via laptop and wireless keyfob signal intercept is making car theft super simple.

Car theft was never all that difficult. The methods have just changed over the years. The thieves are just having to adapt and get educated, or acquire a tow truck to use. Solving one problem often creates another to contend with.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Well, one thing is for certain. Wireless & remote start have created an entire new industry of vehicle thefts. Keyfob signal interception using a laptop is a relatively new thing and vehicles being stolen so quietly via laptop and wireless keyfob signal intercept is making car theft super simple.

And keys and ordinary systems weren't super-simple? I could get into cars in seconds with a couple of simple tools. And I knew auto wiring well enough I could start almost anything out there.
So fob signal interception only means they are using different tools - it's not more simple, just different. We did impounds and more - had to be able to get into and take vehicles you didn't have keys for. Sometimes people involved in accidents weren't really willing to hand over keys or have a vehicle taken away. I've had to move more than one vehicle without "a key". If someone wants it, they'll get it.

I dealt with network, endpoint, WAN/LAN, phone, and other device security for years - there are ways should the auto makers put them in place.

Next gen will likely encrypt or create a secure channel between the two, sort of a VPN of sorts.

There are solutions to this using existing technology - one of these days the car makers will implement it.
They are still going to go after something that nets them a return. And if your car is stolen, it can be remotely disabled. That part has been available for a while.

Face it - if someone wants something - they WILL get it.

The future of security, however, is pretty exciting - and we may soon see something truly hack-proof with quantum computing and connectivity.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Eventually, the car will be smarter than the driver, .

Drive I235 through Des Moines in the AM on the way to work........... it's already happened. In some cases, didn't take all that much. LOL
No, cruise control does NOT mean you can read the paper or put on your makeup on the way to work............ and the people blaming Tesla for accidents because they figured they could sit back and sleep?
Invent something that's idiot-proof and along comes a better idiot.

 

[Jt-wrx]

Invent something that's idiot-proof and along comes a better idiot.

 

[Factoid]

Simple solution.

https://www.popsci.com/my-boring-cyborg-implant/

Next?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

 

[bgenlvtex]

So there is a ton of stuff online about the downsides to push button/keyless ignitions. From the inconveniences people have with misplacing fob or driving away from it only to cab back to it later when they can't restart vehicle, to a bunch of deaths forgetting to push button to stop, car not in park etc., to carbon monoxide poisoning from quiet cars still running in garage or hybrids that came in on electric and left on so the engine starts up after going inside house to one where emergency response personnel have to try and find the fob at accident scenes so they can ensure vehicles are shut down for a variety of safety reasons etc. And...i'm probably missing more of the downsides to this 'wonderful technology'.

So what's the downside to a keyed ignition again? Oh, the driver has to have accountability for the keys to operate that vehicle at all times, the vehicle cannot be operated otherwise. That's a bummer, it's not like a 4000-8000 lb machine you require testing and permission from government to operate due to the multitude of obvious risks to life and safety to the general public. You might have to dig your keys out of your pack after a hike or dig for them in your purse? What the absolute f....

The aftermarket will likely find this gap in availability as the googles on this show a lot more than just the odd person thinks these are a bad idea. Every forum related to cars like this has multiple threads on the subject.

Mopar, you read these forums? Push button start delete option please, i'll be first in line.

Key fob is serving a higher master, don't become an evolutionary data point

 

[Jt-wrx]

i will reluctantly join the collective...for now, ajt fob just ordered, they shipped it in less than an hour, the key will be going on the key ring attached to it anyway, may or may not do a hidden kill switch although the manual transmission should deter quite a few would be thieves, the hidden kill switch may just end up in the dash disguised as an ignition switch that takes said key one more step a would be thief would need to mess with even if they got the rfid sorted and could drive a manual, bonus is i'd always have a place to put my keys, in the dash, where they belong, ha

 

[Jt-wrx]

Simple solution.

https://www.popsci.com/my-boring-cyborg-implant/

Next?

good lord, what about getting an mri?

convenience or not i don't think i'll ever be a believer of anyone other than the driver having connectivity or control over a motor vehicle, send a signal out for emergency great, one way communication only, when someone can hack a system and shut your vehicle down or make it do something unsafe from a computer and a satellite then we've taken it too far, when a human being is piloting a 5000 lb machine with the governments permission through our public spaces then that person should be 100% responsible for it, the operator, how did we get as far as we have beyond this? blows my mind how easily our species loses sight of big picture things so easily

as it is half the people driving out there likely shouldn't be licensed anyway, they sure didn't have to pass the same test i did, now having those same people driving around in vehicles connected to other systems and people by thin air?...we seem to be missing the big picture here, in the name of convenience? the downsides and risks are too great imo but that's for another subject another day, i'll come up with something, likely a key cylinder that can break one wire and hopefully be keyed to the key the jeep already has, it can mount right beside the push button, a kill switch hidden in plain site lol

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