EV - not ready for the masses?

[Billy]

That is a myth and not true.

The cleaner lifetime operations of the EV still comes in noticeably cleaner than ICE vehicles, even taking into consideration the EV's higher production and end-of-life disposal.

Uh, sure...

Sponsored

 

[stampedingTurtles]

There are also natural gas powered fuel cells. Which would be more efficient than any of the other methods you mentioned.

No conversion losses making H2 out of NG.

I'm not finding a great source on the efficiency of direct natural gas fuel cells; but from what I can find they are less efficient than a hydrogen fuel cell, as in essence they do still have to separate the hydrogen out from the natural gas and that takes some additional energy compared to a fuel cell that is using hydrogen as a fuel (looking up info on natural gas fuel cells I'm seeing references to high temperature designs and different catalysts). I'm not sure how the final efficiency there compares to the final efficiency of producing hydrogen from natural gas, then compressing it, storing and transporting and using it in a hydrogen fuel cell; one immediate question I would have here is what the efficiency of a natural gas fuel cell is in an actual vehicle (as opposed to the maximum efficiency we could get from a stationary system; in a vehicle if we add some sort of waste heat recovery system, we then have to carry around that extra weight).

One other thing to consider here is that a natural gas powered vehicle is still going to be producing some CO2 emissions, and it is still running on a non-renewable fossil fuel resource. With a hydrogen FCEV or a BEV, people will point out that right now natural gas is being used to produce the hydrogen or that natural gas and other fossil fuels are used to produce the electricity, but that is something that can change (and has already changed a lot in the last 20 years). We could sit down and do some math and debate to determine whether it is more efficient to use natural gas to produce hydrogen and put that in a FCEV or to make the FCEV run on the natural gas directly, but I think that either of those cases loses compared to using renewable power to produce the hydrogen and put in a FCEV (and then we're back to the debate over that vs just putting the renewable power into a BEV).

And the efficiency of an electric powertrain. With a small battery a NG powered fuel cell vehicle could recover kinetic energy when coasting and braking.

The energy recovery is a big advantage for any type of electric powertrain vehicle, and my understanding is that the use of a battery to recover that energy is a normal part of fuel cell vehicle design (I think it also provides advantages in terms of fuel cell efficiency and sizing, as the battery can be used as an energy buffer to keep the fuel cell operating in higher efficiency range).

 

[dcmdon]

Its kind of a chicken/egg thing.

Hydrogen if made using something clean. (including nuclear and hydroelectric) is ultra clean.

If its made by reforming natural gas. You might as well burn the natural gas. Think about all the inefficiencies in producing h2 that way.

or run the natural gas in a modern cogeneration power plant (90%+ efficiency) and just make electricity.

IMHO the bottom line is that Hydrogen as an auto fuel is pointless unless its made using excess energy. This is where nuclear really shines. Nuc plants like to run at a fairly constant output. At night when demand is low, the Nuc plants make H2.

 

[ttn333]

EV makes good sense for us and a lot of people around here, city dwellers in single family homes. Seems like a lot of people are talking about niche uses as a reason why EV is not a viable vehicle when in fact few people travel more than 200 miles, tow or go off road. Also, the majority of families own more than one vehicle and most mileage used is from daily commuites. EV makes good sense for a lot of us. I can understand being in more rural areas and having to regularly drive longer distances, EV may not work too well.

And no, comparing the cost of your 2000 model year car cost with the cost of a new $50k EV is not apple to apple comparison no matter how you slice it.

 

[Zybane]

Uh, sure...

Posting a pic of a lithium mine is supposed to accomplish what exactly?

That's like me posting one pic of thousands of oil refineries to make a point:

 

[Billy]

Posting a pic of a lithium mine is supposed to accomplish what exactly?

That's like me posting one pic of thousands of oil refineries to make a point:

So you did get my point. EVs are just trading one environmetal nightmare for another. Those things are not green at all. (Including the petroleum products it takes to build them). "For example, a single electric car battery weighing 1,000 pounds requires extracting and processing some 500,000 pounds of materials. Averaged over a battery’s life, each mile of driving an electric car “consumes” five pounds of earth."

Not flaming, just what I believe to be true. And why I bought a JT diesel.

 

[Zybane]

So you did get my point. EVs are just trading one environmetal nightmare for another. Those things are not green at all. (Including the petroleum products it takes to build them). "For example, a single electric car battery weighing 1,000 pounds requires extracting and processing some 500,000 pounds of materials. Averaged over a battery’s life, each mile of driving an electric car “consumes” five pounds of earth."

Not flaming, just what I believe to be true. And why I bought a JT diesel.

Silly to talk in wild generalities that just because EV's aren't 100% green house gas free that they are identical "trading" with ICE vehicle emissions and that they are the same.

Studies have proven that over entire lifecycles, EV's are around 40% less green house gas emitting. 40% reduction in GHG's from the most polluting sector is massive. Going to EV's worldwide hypothetically would save over a BILLION tons of CO2 emissions per year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107970/carbon-dioxide-emissions-passenger-transport/

And as more and more electricity is produced by renewable resources, the slant towards EV's being greener continues in the favor of EVs.

And 40% less GHG is actually quite conservative:

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/ligh...cycle-emissions-than-ice-vehicles-ford-study/

No point in even discussing something as blatantly obvious. Around half of all new car sales by 2030 will be EV's and governments are moving towards new internal combustion engine vehicles banned by 2035.

The only reason I have a JTRD next to my Tesla Model Y is that only the JTRD can fulfill my specific long-distance off-road/overlanding needs at this time.

 

[j.o.y.ride]

I consider myself very left wing, especially socially. But I am not going to get fussy with anyone over their choice of energetic input for their vehicle of choice. No EV is going to save anything. A small dent? Wanna do your part? Wanna post cred on FB or the gram? Fine, have at it.

But my Jeep isn't going to change a damn thing about the world, and nor are the bulk of American vehicles. There's significantly larger pollutants in the world. China, India, shipping, forest fires. Hell Africa burns the middle continent every year.

Unless you're running on 100% solar or renewable from your roof or provider, you're still making pollution, except you are exporting it to where the energy plants are which tend to be lower income areas.

Our household pays like multiples of the nominal US income just in taxes each year. But I am not willing to export my pollution to those less fortunate.

I am not one to pollute poor areas to try to claim I am running clean. Pollution exportation is just another level of exploitation.

 

[Unbreakable]

Still one huge problem with most EVs, they are ugly as hell. My wife would be a perfect candidate for an EV but she can't get past the looks.

 

[TheSandeman]

EVs are cool. Any household in a position to do so should have one. But having only EVs is a dicey proposition.

buddy of mine had a Tesla, he said long trips were a drag to the point that he was renting ICE cars so he wouldn't sit at a charging station every couple hundred miles- he did say that it was great for local trips and such but he ultimately traded it in for a hybrid.

 

[Troop]

"Will electric vehicles save the planet if we all buy them? Are cars definitely the worst causes of Global Warming? And if not, what is?"

https://www.youtube.com/embed/sytWLB4-W-M



Also interesting and not from a car based show.

"This talk will challenge the popular perception that Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs) are environmentally friendly, and will argue that we are inappropriately rushing the market introduction of these vehicles."

https://www.youtube.com/embed/S1E8SQde5rk

 

[Blade1668]

I've driven KS and NE many times, and trust me, there won't be any regeneration on many of their highways. Flat, you can see for so many miles, it's crazy. Even in chunks of Indiana, you won't be going down hill much at all. There are states where you drive for 2 hours and not really go down a hill.
They were not commuting, so you can't compare your experiences to anyone making a long trip through multiple states.

Bill.
Probably 3/4 of IL, TX, WY, GA, MS, 1/2 of NM, NV,AZ 7/8 of FL.
Oh the "regeneration" the vehicle still has a parasitic loss from friction, wind drag and head / side winds.

As I said before in other threads and in this one. I was on list for a E.V. but due S###y acts from that company and various other things it wouldn't work for me currently. Other things that can and does play in to the cost of E.V. is where you can park, live and work. The cost of living within E.V. commuting distance, how much is the starting price of housing? Then maybe add in H.O.A's, more fee's, property taxes (city, county), limitations on what you are allowed to do. There is many more factors that are glazed over or forgot when people talk about any pet topics.
RANT MODE ON:
I'm single tax rate, med, dental, vision insurance, Fed and State tax and trying to put away for retirement. Ending pay is dismal to say the least. I typically I'm a frugal B###### on my living expenses. Another reason I live in the "sticks" low cost of living. My utilities are cheap for said reason. Electric, phone, gas, vehicle insurance and water. My electric bill would be double at minimum more likely quadruple in cost with E.V. it's normally around $100 a month. Why, I use LED lighting, and try to be efficient, i keep heating and cooling at minimum.
Forty% of my income just went to taxes before I get to see it. Now the question is how much more will it be in electric if the rate of power consumption doubled or more likely quadruple plus more taxes on it too.
"My response is off in the weeds" but is things to factor in, I bring this up why how much is the cost of the new E.V. or P.H.E.V don't forget the insurance and taxes. The road tax is coming for them if not already being added. A lot of the cost at the pump is them City, State, Fed road taxes.
Now I'd still like to have a E.V. but there is and will be a cost that many don't want to admit.

 

[Toyfrog]

Having worked in the electrical utilities business for the last 27 years, it makes me laugh. People say that EV’s are better for the environment, how do you think your little hot wheels car gets changed? Sure there are solar and wind farms, but most electricity is still made the ole fashioned way. In a coal or gas fired power plant, and they put off no emissions ?. That just means they have to produce more and more electricity when some grids are already strained at times. Here in the Houston area, we have been setting a lot of Tesla supercharger stations at HEB -grocery store’s and Buc-ee’s - gas stations. I think it’s funny that Tesla picked Buc-ee’s, some of the Gas stations have 60-80 pumps and they decided to put there charging stations there. ??. Also, what happens in the event of a storm where power may be knocked out for multiple days? Gonna go crank start your EV.

 

[j.o.y.ride]

Also, what happens in the event of a storm where power may be knocked out for multiple days? Gonna go crank start your EV.

You wouldn't be able to get gas either, the pumps require electricity.

 

[The Crusader]

You could turn an electric F150 into a series hybrid by installing a small generator in the bed for long trips.

Sponsored