Gladiator "5th Wheel"

[pbrevo64]

I am quite curious to see how this turns out. Michigan and a few other states allow triple towing, as long as the first trailer is a fifth wheel/gooseneck, and weight wise, this would allow triple towing a single jet ski behind the Scamp. Theoretically speaking, at least ?

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[CrazyCooter]

I am quite curious to see how this turns out. Michigan and a few other states allow triple towing, as long as the first trailer is a fifth wheel/gooseneck, and weight wise, this would allow triple towing a single jet ski behind the Scamp. Theoretically speaking, at least ?

I can't wait to hear from all the people who think that is a dangerous combination yet have zero experience!

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I can't wait to hear from all the people who think that is a dangerous combination yet have zero experience!

It'll happen.
If this combo had been available years ago, there's no question I'd have looked into it. My only reason back then for holding off if this had been available would have been $$$$. The rig I had would have been a whole lot cheaper.

I see only two "dangers" and the first one would be if "certain people" were installing the hitch. Anything can be made dangerous, unsafe, risky when you insert humans into the equation.
The other is this: I wonder how it would handle wind, being so high.......... I've looked into that sort of thing enough to "wonder" - not to say "don't do it" but to be curious how it would be in a real world. That's a lot of frontage.

As far as dangerous - assuming the proper hitch was installed properly and not by hacks and idiots on boobtoob looking for clicks and money and popularity. If it was installed with any common sense, the hitch would of course be fine.

Tongue weight in the case of a conventional trailer of any sort is pulling down well back of the rear wheels. It's got a lot more leverage over the truck.
Tongue weight on this is right over the rear axle, actually distributed over several square feet by the hitch brackets. Perfect situation.

What's more of a "Danger" - a trailer trying to mess with you when it's got a whole lot more leverage over things sticking way back there, or one that's planted in the bed of the truck, over the axle, where weight is meant to be, and where the truck has more leverage or advantage over it in case of emergency?
If you have to hit the brakes and have a little issue going on, the truck can more easily control things with a gooseneck than a conventional trailer.

Frankly, I'm curious as heck as to how it does due to the height factor - wind and drag.
The trailer is light, compensate for payload by putting your gear in the trailer as I doubt you max out the towing capacity with a rig this light.

 

[MPMB]

Frankly, I'm curious as heck as to how it does due to the height factor - wind and drag.
The trailer is light, compensate for payload by putting your gear in the trailer as I doubt you max out the towing capacity with a rig this light.

That's the part that makes me chuckle when people start throwing around "you lose so much of your payload with a 5th wheel!"

Unless you're hauling around a lot of fattys, what payload? All your s**t goes in the trailer. If it's just 2 people, you have your 75# road trip cooler in with you. Payload (in most cases) isn't a concern unless you have 4 adults.

The aero is the big thing. You can minimize the front area resistance with a fairing on the roof. Back in my racing days the team put one on the tow rig and it picked up 2-4mpg, depending on where they were going (flat or mountains). But with the aerodynamics of a Gladiator, does it really matter?

I am quite curious to see how this turns out. Michigan and a few other states allow triple towing, as long as the first trailer is a fifth wheel/gooseneck, and weight wise, this would allow triple towing a single jet ski behind the Scamp. Theoretically speaking, at least ?

You should see the rigs going/coming at Sturgis. Motorhomes towing a flatbed w/ a daily towing an enclosed bike trailer. Or a big 5th wheel with a bike trailer.

There's also a length limit, iirc. I remember first seeing double trailers in OR, but not in WA. It was strange to see at first.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

500 pounds hanging behind the rear bumper is worse than 500 pounds in the bed. It's still taking from payload no matter where it is, but up in the bed it's putting that load where it belongs. And the way it's doing it is superior to a weight distributing contraption that introduces things of its own.
A gooseneck takes some of the bed, but not all of it. you could still stow some low things back there but why? Put it in the trailer. Safer, dryer, and it's carried by the trailer axles that way.
500 pounds in the trailer is only putting 50 additional pounds on the tongue if it's placed properly.
As long as you don't go over the trailer's weight ratings, no problem.

Yeah, look at the big rigs since the 70s and the "oil crisis". Take some lessons from those guys.
But there's only one way to know the impact on a Jeep - try driving it in some wind.
I'm only concerned because of my own experiences - unless some one has put this sort of setup in a wind tunnel and figured drag and other fun stuff, you can't "know", you can only speculate.

 

[CrazyCooter]

It'll happen.
If this combo had been available years ago, there's no question I'd have looked into it. My only reason back then for holding off if this had been available would have been $$$$. The rig I had would have been a whole lot cheaper.

I see only two "dangers" and the first one would be if "certain people" were installing the hitch. Anything can be made dangerous, unsafe, risky when you insert humans into the equation.
The other is this: I wonder how it would handle wind, being so high.......... I've looked into that sort of thing enough to "wonder" - not to say "don't do it" but to be curious how it would be in a real world. That's a lot of frontage.

As far as dangerous - assuming the proper hitch was installed properly and not by hacks and idiots on boobtoob looking for clicks and money and popularity. If it was installed with any common sense, the hitch would of course be fine.

Tongue weight in the case of a conventional trailer of any sort is pulling down well back of the rear wheels. It's got a lot more leverage over the truck.
Tongue weight on this is right over the rear axle, actually distributed over several square feet by the hitch brackets. Perfect situation.

What's more of a "Danger" - a trailer trying to mess with you when it's got a whole lot more leverage over things sticking way back there, or one that's planted in the bed of the truck, over the axle, where weight is meant to be, and where the truck has more leverage or advantage over it in case of emergency?
If you have to hit the brakes and have a little issue going on, the truck can more easily control things with a gooseneck than a conventional trailer.

Frankly, I'm curious as heck as to how it does due to the height factor - wind and drag.
The trailer is light, compensate for payload by putting your gear in the trailer as I doubt you max out the towing capacity with a rig this light.

It absolutely comes down to how a person sets it up and loads the combo. More pivots and weight always requires more skill and care especially in a panic situation. Many people hardly posess the skills to operate a compact car, so double towing is NOT for them.

I've seen a few dangerous setups, but have also seen many successful double tows.....I've done 3 combos myself, one being double tag hitches and one swivel wheel trailer. The swivel was not good for the first tow out, but I got it dialed in for the second. I can honestly say my double tag hitch combo towed better than the single.....must have been the sway control preloading the pivot.

 

[CrazyCooter]

That's the part that makes me chuckle when people start throwing around "you lose so much of your payload with a 5th wheel!"

Unless you're hauling around a lot of fattys, what payload? All your s**t goes in the trailer. If it's just 2 people, you have your 75# road trip cooler in with you. Payload (in most cases) isn't a concern unless you have 4 adults.

The aero is the big thing. You can minimize the front area resistance with a fairing on the roof. Back in my racing days the team put one on the tow rig and it picked up 2-4mpg, depending on where they were going (flat or mountains). But with the aerodynamics of a Gladiator, does it really matter?



You should see the rigs going/coming at Sturgis. Motorhomes towing a flatbed w/ a daily towing an enclosed bike trailer. Or a big 5th wheel with a bike trailer.

There's also a length limit, iirc. I remember first seeing double trailers in OR, but not in WA. It was strange to see at first.

In theory you do lose payload with 5th vs tag when you factor in the actual weight of the hitch.......5th is 80+lb and the ball mount is 4-7lb? Then factor in 25% hitch weight for the 5th vs 10% tag......I know many manufacturers are only doing 15%ish for 5ths and many are doing 20%+ on tags, but I'm talking the recommended numbers that are generally are thrown around. Truck ratings in the modern HD (especially 250/2500) class are higher tag trailers if you don't want to exceed the RAWR.

I can agree 5th "Should" always tow more stable due to the pivot over the rear axle.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

It absolutely comes down to how a person sets it up and loads the combo. More pivots and weight always requires more skill and care especially in a panic situation. Many people hardly posess the skills to operate a compact car, so double towing is NOT for them.

I've seen a few dangerous setups, but have also seen many successful double tows.....I've done 3 combos myself, one being double tag hitches and one swivel wheel trailer. The swivel was not good for the first tow out, but I got it dialed in for the second. I can honestly say my double tag hitch combo towed better than the single.....must have been the sway control preloading the pivot.

Something "pulling" back at the middle tow is going to try to keep it straight........... I've not experienced sway in any of my towing but there's been times I've sort of felt "different" and wondered if it was the beginning or if it was thinking about it.

Terminology is inconsistent. Some states call it double towing, while others call it triple towing.
Looks like every state along the Atlantic bans double towing except for Maryland.
Hawaii, Washington and Oregon also make it illegal to double tow.

Some places (like Michigan and California) require you to have a special endorsement on your driver’s license to triple tow.
Licensing requirements may require a special commercial driver’s license (California) - or simply taking a test to get a “Recreational Double” endorsement.

List (may not be current) of states that allow triple (double) towing: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah.

So if you do such a thing and leave your home state - might want to look into possible "gotchas".

 

[CrazyCooter]

Something "pulling" back at the middle tow is going to try to keep it straight........... I've not experienced sway in any of my towing but there's been times I've sort of felt "different" and wondered if it was the beginning or if it was thinking about it.

Terminology is inconsistent. Some states call it double towing, while others call it triple towing.
Looks like every state along the Atlantic bans double towing except for Maryland.
Hawaii, Washington and Oregon also make it illegal to double tow.

Some places (like Michigan and California) require you to have a special endorsement on your driver’s license to triple tow.
Licensing requirements may require a special commercial driver’s license (California) - or simply taking a test to get a “Recreational Double” endorsement.

List (may not be current) of states that allow triple (double) towing: Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah.

So if you do such a thing and leave your home state - might want to look into possible "gotchas".

Yes, we have the PITA license requirements here in CA, however they are relaxing a few things for us recreational towers with the non "house trailer coach" trailers 10,001lb-15,000lb mid year (restriction 41 endorsement required). We also don't get any extra length with the doubles like many states....65' is not enough many times. I was 68' with just my Pete and 37' 5th........

It does seem like eastern people call it triple towing and maybe this is why? In my mind......No trailer isn't single towing, one trailer isn't double towing, two trailers isn't triple, because tree trailers would then make it quadruple towing? ? Stands to reason? Could just be my weird west coast mind.....Kinda like Spanish says stuff backward when you translate it?

 

[MPMB]

In theory you do lose payload with 5th vs tag when you factor in the actual weight of the hitch.......5th is 80+lb and the ball mount is 4-7lb? Then factor in 25% hitch weight for the 5th vs 10% tag......I know many manufacturers are only doing 15%ish for 5ths and many are doing 20%+ on tags, but I'm talking the recommended numbers that are generally are thrown around. Truck ratings in the modern HD (especially 250/2500) class are higher tag trailers if you don't want to exceed the RAWR.

I can agree 5th "Should" always tow more stable due to the pivot over the rear axle.

I'm referring to the people saying "you have 1200# of payload, and a 5th wheel is going to take 400# of that, you're only going to have 800# left to put stuff in your truck."

If you have a trailer, you're putting your s**t in the trailer, not the bed, not the backseat.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I'm referring to the people saying "you have 1200# of payload, and a 5th wheel is going to take 400# of that, you're only going to have 800# left to put stuff in your truck."

If you have a trailer, you're putting your s**t in the trailer, not the bed, not the backseat.

Exactly - what makes it worse is that they don't seem to think or believe that a trailer on the ball behind the bumper is also taking 400# or more.
Mine is set up to pull great with 10% of the trailer's total weight as tongue weight, so I run 500# tongue weight. That counts against my payload and in ways worse than if it was in the bed of the truck.

But if it's a gooseneck or other type that hooks in the bed, it's a bad thing maybe because they can see it's sitting in the bed of the truck.
Th irony is that people think one is bad while not even thinking that - uh, doesn't matter the TYPE of trailer - tongue weight takes away from payload - period, no matter how it's connected to the tow vehicle.
500 pounds behind the bumper, though, IMO, is worse than 500 pounds in the bed over the axle.

 

[CrazyCooter]

I'm referring to the people saying "you have 1200# of payload, and a 5th wheel is going to take 400# of that, you're only going to have 800# left to put stuff in your truck."

If you have a trailer, you're putting your s**t in the trailer, not the bed, not the backseat.

Yes, but if you wanted to tow 7,650 in a stripped "Sport Max tow" that has only has 1,700lb payload, that 25% 5th hitch weight is 1913lb and then add 80lb+ for the in bed 5th hitch?m You are overloaded on both payload and RAWR before you add fuel or passengers. Even if you only had 15% on the hitch, that's 1,148lb plus the hitch, fuel, driver, and passengers? Even that's at the edge. Probably over on RAWR

With the tag hitch weight at 765lb, that leaves 935lb for payload and the axle is not overloaded.

The OP's trailer is well under the max tow rating, therefore way under the max hitch weight leaving plenty of payload. That Scamp has much lighter hitch weight than a normal 5th.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Yes, but if you wanted to tow 7,650 in a stripped "Sport Max tow" that has only has 1,700lb payload, that 25% 5th hitch weight is 1913lb and then add 80lb+ for the in bed 5th hitch?m You are overloaded on both payload and RAWR before you add fuel or passengers. Even if you only had 15% on the hitch, that's 1,148lb plus the hitch, fuel, driver, and passengers? Even that's at the edge. Probably over on RAWR

With the tag hitch weight at 765lb, that leaves 935lb for payload and the axle is not overloaded.

The OP's trailer is well under the max tow rating, therefore way under the max hitch weight leaving plenty of payload. That Scamp has much lighter hitch weight than a normal 5th.

You are talking 5th wheel vs. gooseneck though........ a lot of weight differences for the hitch itself between the two.

A basic rule to go by is that the tongue weight of a 5th wheel trailer is about 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. (I checked and some say 15-30% while the majority tow with 18-20%)


Interesting stuff, here -


The largest of the Scamp range, this 5th-wheel RV provides a queen-size loft bed and extra sleeping space for up to six people.

With a wetroom, kitchen facilities, and plenty of storage space, the approximate weight of the trailer is 2,400-2,900 pounds, whereas the hitch weight is 400 pounds. This is one of the lightest fifth-wheel campers we’ve ever come across.

Here are a few more examples of lightweight fifth-wheel RVs that can be towed by a half-ton truck:

Allen Camper MFG. Outpost Lite 2690 RETS

Length: 27 feet
UVW (unloaded vehicle weight): 6,300 pounds
GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating): 8,500 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 1,350 pounds
Escape 5.0

Length: 21 feet 2 inches
Unloaded weight: 3,910 pounds
GVWR: 5,500 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 646 pounds
Jayco Eagle HT 24.5CKTS

Length: 29 feet 5 inches
Unloaded weight: 7,460 pounds
GVWR: 9,950 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 1,340 pounds

and

https://www.curtmfg.com/5th-wheel/gooseneck-adapters/learn-more

 

[MPMB]

Yes, but if you wanted to tow 7,650 in a stripped "Sport Max tow" that has only has 1,700lb payload, that 25% 5th hitch weight is 1913lb and then add 80lb+ for the in bed 5th hitch?m You are overloaded on both payload and RAWR before you add fuel or passengers. Even if you only had 15% on the hitch, that's 1,148lb plus the hitch, fuel, driver, and passengers? Even that's at the edge. Probably over on RAWR

With the tag hitch weight at 765lb, that leaves 935lb for payload and the axle is not overloaded.

I'm not arguing numbers. I'm stating that many people will make a decision regarding towing (or rather, just make statements on a message board) that is based on flawed thinking.

 

[CrazyCooter]

You are talking 5th wheel vs. gooseneck though........ a lot of weight differences for the hitch itself between the two.

A basic rule to go by is that the tongue weight of a 5th wheel trailer is about 20 percent of the gross trailer weight. (I checked and some say 15-30% while the majority tow with 18-20%)


Interesting stuff, here -


The largest of the Scamp range, this 5th-wheel RV provides a queen-size loft bed and extra sleeping space for up to six people.

With a wetroom, kitchen facilities, and plenty of storage space, the approximate weight of the trailer is 2,400-2,900 pounds, whereas the hitch weight is 400 pounds. This is one of the lightest fifth-wheel campers we’ve ever come across.

Here are a few more examples of lightweight fifth-wheel RVs that can be towed by a half-ton truck:

Allen Camper MFG. Outpost Lite 2690 RETS

Length: 27 feet
UVW (unloaded vehicle weight): 6,300 pounds
GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating): 8,500 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 1,350 pounds
Escape 5.0

Length: 21 feet 2 inches
Unloaded weight: 3,910 pounds
GVWR: 5,500 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 646 pounds
Jayco Eagle HT 24.5CKTS

Length: 29 feet 5 inches
Unloaded weight: 7,460 pounds
GVWR: 9,950 pounds
Dry weight (hitch): 1,340 pounds

and

https://www.curtmfg.com/5th-wheel/gooseneck-adapters/learn-more

Two of those RV's are out based on the hitch weight since most people didn't buy a stripped truck, don't weigh under 140lb and don't travel alone with an empty fuel tank? Also factor in those hitch weights are dry and water tanks are usually over the axles, while the waste tanks are in front of the axles, and there are usually storage cabinets/closets over the hitch/ion front of the axles too......gotta leave wiggle room in there for that.

Then your gooseneck adapted is a really bad idea. Most RV's don't have the strength in the overpin to handle the leverage added by the gooseneck adapter. Seen lots of frame failures both in person and the net. A technical guy like you could look at that from a side view and see it's bad. Just do a quick google image search to see the results.

The Andersen Ultimate in aluminum could be an answer if it would fit beterween the fenders......Again, we have wannabe trucks, so not much is made for us in the heavy towing arena. That hitch then transfers the twisting to the tuck's frame and bed......Can it handle that?

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