Is off roading too easy nowadays?

[WILDHOBO]

I shoot for 1/8 inch of toe-in at the tire diameter.

Is there a chart somewhere with toe recommendations based on tire size and other variables?

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[WILDHOBO]

I'm running 35's, I set the toe at ~17 1/2 inches out from center on my toe-bars. 37's I'd go out to ~18 1/2 inches from center.

Excuse my ignorance. Don’t you just subtract the front from the rear to get your toe in measurement?

 

[Artsifrtsi]

Excuse my ignorance. Don’t you just subtract the front from the rear to get your toe in measurement?

Yes, but you need to take the measurements at equal distances from the center. Also much easier to use a toe-bar (I made mine out of 90 angle aluminum. Set up and drilled holes in the angle stock to attach the bars to the hubs via wheel studs, centered on the hubs, then mark the tire diameter on the bars.) I set the bars level in reference to the driveway, and take the measurements and adjust.

 

[GoHack]

Love the cj. Mine had plenty of rust as well. I should have kept it and replaced the tub. Oh well. Hindsight. It goes both ways though. The jeeps today are way safer, on the road and off. A serious rollover with the cj roll bar attached to the tub instead of the frame wasn’t exactly awesome. And the windshield would crumple like a tin can. The new ones put you in a situation to number one have less chances of rolling, and if you do, you’ll like have bumps and bruises.i wouldn’t wheel hard trails in a cj with my kids in the back. I don’t hesitate in these.

The one I should of kept was my 2006 TJ Unlimited.
While it had over 100K miles on it, it was still going strong.
While having it serviced at a Jeep dealer I did the dumb thing of looking at a new JK. The rest is history.

 

[professorkx]

Is there a chart somewhere with toe recommendations based on tire size and other variables?

As soon as I finish swapping the gears in the front axle of my motorhome on F550 chassis this week, I’m going to put my Gladiator on the lift and check the toe. Even with the AEV lift and 37 inch tires I have not changed anything in the front that would change the toe with stock tires since I haven’t touched the tie rod, so going to get a baseline that I will use going forward on my Gladiator. I have always used 1/8” on my Jeeps, but with the new Gladiator I have the opportunity to compare my standard measurement to the stock toe with larger tires.

 

[Artsifrtsi]

The one I should of kept was my 2006 TJ Unlimited.
While it had over 100K miles on it, it was still going strong.
While having it serviced at a Jeep dealer I did the dumb thing of looking at a new JK. The rest is history.

Luckily, I never fell into that trap. We still have our '05 TJ that we have owned since new.

 

[TheDerb]

Nothing is Cheap for a JT? For a sport to get to 37's up front: 2 inch spacers on some take away rubi springs and one inch rear and add some used rubi flares that sub $800
25 years ago you couldn't do 36's on a TJ for under $2k

Traction on a sport you could get used rubicon axles and plug and play and if you want to go cheap you can add twin lunch box lockers $400 each (Aussi locker for a TJ in 04 was $350

Stock parts are cheaper now not just comparatively! a parts store TJ rotor bottom barrel, if there was event a choice, was around $75-120 (i worked in a parts store in the late 90's)

a 2023 JT rock auto you can get one as cheap as $29
Drilled black and sloted $129


The quality of parts has also risen ... 25 years ago you made your own sliders and tube doors only rich kids bought them at a shop

lucky guys had a garage to do work most if best had a drivway ...

I did my first sprung over on Zuk in a gravel drive with the tools I had
back then the bolt ons just didn't exist ...

You make some great points, especially about how certain individual parts really are cheaper now than they were 25 years ago. I agree with that. But when it comes to Rubicon axles being "plug and play" or inexpensive, I just don’t think that lines up with reality for most people. I'd challenge you to find a set of Rubicon axles for less than $5,000.

Sure, someone might get lucky on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist. But more often than not, those “cheap” Rubicon axles are priced like they are made of gold. The idea of just grabbing some used parts and bolting them on sounds simple, but in practice, it is rarely that easy. Most people are not interested in spending weeks messaging sellers who all think their worn-out parts are worth top dollar.

And when it comes to running 37s on a Gladiator Sport, it takes a lot more than just a spacer lift and some flares to do it right. You need to account for re-gearing at the very least if you are going to put a Sport on 37's. Doing a proper upgrade shouldn't leave you with poor drivability or wondering if you're going to make it over a feature when you're out at the park because you aren't sure your axles can handle the strain your causing with those 37s. When you add up the real cost of doing it right, especially if you are not doing all the work yourself, you often end up spending more than just buying a Rubicon to begin with.

I still respect the DIY mindset. I have done my fair share of wrenching in a gravel driveway too. But what has changed is that the value of building it yourself has gone down. There are fewer good deals, it is harder to find people to help, and even though some parts cost less, putting together a capable and reliable build is not as simple or affordable as it used to be.

 

[Supazuk]

That’s very impressive. What’s your method for axle center measurement? I can get close, but not perfect. Any suggestions are appreciated. I have brackets for toe measurement and shoot for 1/16” toe in. Is that what you’d shoot for? Thanks.

I learned it form the hot rod article "Straight as a string" hot road or maybe carcraft
Use magnets or tape a string over the leading edge of the fenders with a plumb or large nut at the end and a straight edge to center track width or center a solid axle
this can also alond with a magnet angle finder give you camber on a car
Take cross measurements WMS to WMS front to rear to have 4 wheel alignment
magnet straight edge each wheel and measure
Center wheel take your kid that owes you the most in chores promise to cancel them and a free Ice cream... it will be dead on center

 

[pcrawfordpt]

I’ve been Jeeping since 97 when I bought my TJ. Although an automatic, I learned how to off road driving with both feet, picking progressively harder lines, getting to know the feel of my TJ, trying not to use lockers until needed, etc.. I still have and actually prefer to wheel my TJ over my Gladiator. The reason is this new technology. I hate it. The ABS Pulse, the Diff Lock, Traction Control and the like are terribly annoying to me. Yes, you can hold the TC button for five seconds and reduce some of it, but not all. I still drive with both feet, and that seems to reduce the input from them the most, but I still hate it. I guess if you didn’t know any better, you would like it, but I’m old school.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Yes, but you need to take the measurements at equal distances from the center. Also much easier to use a toe-bar (I made mine out of 90 angle aluminum. Set up and drilled holes in the angle stock to attach the bars to the hubs via wheel studs, centered on the hubs, then mark the tire diameter on the bars.) I set the bars level in reference to the driveway, and take the measurements and adjust.

I have toe bars. I rotate them up to touch the rear of the caliper on both sides, that way they’re in the same position on both rotors. What’s the significance of the tire diameter?

 

[WILDHOBO]

As soon as I finish swapping the gears in the front axle of my motorhome on F550 chassis this week, I’m going to put my Gladiator on the lift and check the toe. Even with the AEV lift and 37 inch tires I have not changed anything in the front that would change the toe with stock tires since I haven’t touched the tie rod, so going to get a baseline that I will use going forward on my Gladiator. I have always used 1/8” on my Jeeps, but with the new Gladiator I have the opportunity to compare my standard measurement to the stock toe with larger tires.

That ship sailed a while ago for me. I’m on my second aftermarket tie rod.

 

[Supazuk]

You make some great points, especially about how certain individual parts really are cheaper now than they were 25 years ago. I agree with that. But when it comes to Rubicon axles being "plug and play" or inexpensive, I just don’t think that lines up with reality for most people. I'd challenge you to find a set of Rubicon axles for less than $5,000.

Sure, someone might get lucky on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist. But more often than not, those “cheap” Rubicon axles are priced like they are made of gold. The idea of just grabbing some used parts and bolting them on sounds simple, but in practice, it is rarely that easy. Most people are not interested in spending weeks messaging sellers who all think their worn-out parts are worth top dollar.

And when it comes to running 37s on a Gladiator Sport, it takes a lot more than just a spacer lift and some flares to do it right. You need to account for re-gearing at the very least if you are going to put a Sport on 37's. Doing a proper upgrade shouldn't leave you with poor drivability or wondering if you're going to make it over a feature when you're out at the park because you aren't sure your axles can handle the strain your causing with those 37s. When you add up the real cost of doing it right, especially if you are not doing all the work yourself, you often end up spending more than just buying a Rubicon to begin with.

I still respect the DIY mindset. I have done my fair share of wrenching in a gravel driveway too. But what has changed is that the value of building it yourself has gone down. There are fewer good deals, it is harder to find people to help, and even though some parts cost less, putting together a capable and reliable build is not as simple or affordable as it used to be.

before the Rubicon... there was no store bought option
and a fully built set of D'44 (weaker than stock rubi axles now) set you back $3500 in 2000 ) money
if you are just parts cannon firing thats just as bad as mall crawling and proves the OP's point of "these kids have it too

I've build buggys and other rigs ... if you don't have time to look for deals you need to have lots of extra money

I know I didn't pay 18% of sticker price for my left over new 23 sport S Max and you can check out my build .. between coupons and deals I'm on 35's for 46K with a rear LSD and a front locker coming

 

[ourjeeps]

Honestly - yes it's too easy... All the comments here have covered the topic well.

I'd add that yes things have changed with technology and mechanicals. As an (old) schooled/experienced aviator, systems, logistics, and IT engineer RVer, Jeeper, classic car guy the off-roading knowledge of new Jeepers (technical driving skills) is limited, but videos and trail experience get them up more quickly than the old days.

Repair/technical knowledge is more lacking across the group with built, turn-key, fully warrantied capable Jeep (e.g.) Rubicons/ Mojaves (and others) - BUT - but as evidenced on this forum and other Jeep forums, that (thankfully) there are PLENTY but (regretfully) seemingly too few wrench-turners out there.

There is a clear weekend difference between the classic car hobby and offroading. Restoring classics, driving, enjoying, showing and polishing them is great (NO mechanical carnage).

But with Jeeping/offroading - you hope to return home un-dented/un-scraped, mechanically intact with no costly mechanical breakage/damage, under own power, and without a trailer. And you ideally go out on off-roading trips with someone (several ideally) in the group trailering their Jeeps, as a trailer option backup in case a Jeep(s) ends up non-roadworthy. Rule is you drive their Jeep home and pay for all the gas to graciously compensate for the friendly "recovery service."

Also fortuitous to have folks in the wilderness with steel and portable welders, if a frame/suspension component cracks on vintage Jeeps...

The current state of modern vehicles makes this logistics/sustainment experienced guy cringe with the demise of the KISS rule of thumb (Keep It Simple Stupid).

And if you've never been nose-high stalled on the some rocky hillside in an old-school CJ-5 carbureted V-8 (at high altitude), 3-Speed manual, manual drum brakes ---you can't fully appreciate the joy of modern vehicles - or haven't lived (or nearly died?)!

Driving an airconditioned modern Jeep in the wilderness is a surreal experience. But taking off your doors/roof and breathing trail dust can simulate the old Jeep experience - to a degree

Our current flat-tow Jeep fleet technology ranges from old, to modern, to stupid modern :

1) My built "farm tractor/death machine" '74 AMC Jeep CJ-5 w/ 304 V-8, T-18A (granny), crude but tough Detroit Lockers, roll caged/harnessed, lifted jeep on 33's, (followed by later sold '02 built TJ (pre-Rubicon)),

2) Wife's (Anniversary gift, replaced the TJ) '17 JKUR Recon w/winch on a MOPAR lift and 35's with a no longer avail lifetime warranty, and

3) Wife's recently acquired (bad knees) un-lifted (but for 10.5 35's) winch equipped '24 JT Rubicon X

All of above are RV flat tows - the CJ-5 was our first flat tow w/unique rear Warn manual hubs (no longer sold) on full-floater Dana 44 axle.

Enjoy the Gladiator --- off-road too!

 

[WILDHOBO]

I learned it form the hot rod article "Straight as a string" hot road or maybe carcraft
Use magnets or tape a string over the leading edge of the fenders with a plumb or large nut at the end and a straight edge to center track width or center a solid axle
this can also alond with a magnet angle finder give you camber on a car
Take cross measurements WMS to WMS front to rear to have 4 wheel alignment
magnet straight edge each wheel and measure
Center wheel take your kid that owes you the most in chores promise to cancel them and a free Ice cream... it will be dead on center

I sort of understand what you’re getting at, but it’s not clicking. Can you at some point when you have time take some pictures of the setup?

 

[Supazuk]

Honestly - yes it's too easy... All the comments here have covered the topic well.

I'd add that yes things have changed with technology and mechanicals. As an (old) schooled/experienced aviator, systems, logistics, and IT engineer RVer, Jeeper, classic car guy the off-roading knowledge of new Jeepers (technical driving skills) is limited, but videos and trail experience get them up more quickly than the old days.

Repair/technical knowledge is more lacking across the group with built, turn-key, fully warrantied capable Jeep (e.g.) Rubicons/ Mojaves (and others) - BUT - but as evidenced on this forum and other Jeep forums, that (thankfully) there are PLENTY but (regretfully) seemingly too few wrench-turners out there.

There is a clear weekend difference between the classic car hobby and offroading. Restoring classics, driving, enjoying, showing and polishing them is great (NO mechanical carnage).

But with Jeeping/offroading - you hope to return home un-dented/un-scraped, mechanically intact with no costly mechanical breakage/damage, under own power, and without a trailer. And you ideally go out on off-roading trips with someone (several ideally) in the group trailering their Jeeps, as a trailer option backup in case a Jeep(s) ends up non-roadworthy. Rule is you drive their Jeep home and pay for all the gas to graciously compensate for the friendly "recovery service."

Also fortuitous to have folks in the wilderness with steel and portable welders, if a frame/suspension component cracks on vintage Jeeps...

The current state of modern vehicles makes this logistics/sustainment experienced guy cringe with the demise of the KISS rule of thumb (Keep It Simple Stupid).

And if you've never been nose-high stalled on the some rocky hillside in an old-school CJ-5 carbureted V-8 (at high altitude), 3-Speed manual, manual drum brakes ---you can't fully appreciate the joy of modern vehicles - or haven't lived (or nearly died?)!

Driving an airconditioned modern Jeep in the wilderness is a surreal experience. But taking off your doors/roof and breathing trail dust can simulate the old Jeep experience - to a degree

Our current flat-tow Jeep fleet technology ranges from old, to modern, to stupid modern :

1) My built "farm tractor/death machine" '74 AMC Jeep CJ-5 w/ 304 V-8, T-18A (granny), crude but tough Detroit Lockers, roll caged/harnessed, lifted jeep on 33's, (followed by later sold '02 built TJ (pre-Rubicon)),

2) Wife's (Anniversary gift, replaced the TJ) '17 JKUR Recon w/winch on a MOPAR lift and 35's with a no longer avail lifetime warranty, and

3) Wife's recently acquired (bad knees) un-lifted (but for 10.5 35's) winch equipped '24 JT Rubicon X

All of above are RV flat tows - the CJ-5 was our first flat tow w/unique rear Warn manual hubs (no longer sold) on full-floater Dana 44 axle.

Enjoy the Gladiator --- off-road too!

I want to click all the emojis on this one


built, wheeled this in AK (you don't just buy parts up there)
94 sami on CJ 2" front yj 2 inch rears sprung over with high steer side kick 5.13's gears in the diffs, lock right rear on 33x12.5 swampers drove it clear across country to NH

and it went through lots of changes 36's some where in the middle till this: its on long filled 4.30 yotas, twin stick w/ doubler sway a ways and garage built not a kit links 120 DOM
(most linked rigs came from lots of math and beer)
my wreck (built in 2010) i bearly get out any more on 39.5 Iroks .... yes we build our own Bead locks from kits then

I think the thing most new wheelers don't understand was no one did it overnight until the Rubicon became a used car
and until the JKUR the aftermarket was cottage industry

Most of it was trial and error and research
And before the net you had to wait for the newest Petersons 4wheel or soming out carcraft that might cross over
spending hours in the salvage yard comparing master cylinders and caliper openings ( 79 Trans AM 4wheel disk was my go to M/C and 79 caddy had build in e brakes for rear calipers,
we build our own twin sticks , sliders belly skids
when the net came it was shared on pirate, Offroad, and others

Back then by opening a laptop going to a few sites and firing the bank account at it just was not possible so if time is money, it is so much cheaper now and that is what OP ment

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